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Are you kidding? People talk. People read ads for positions. Word would get out pretty quickly in most workplaces.
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2. Not being happy about it is irrelevant. *grumble grumble why aren't we getting raises too? Grumble grumble* doesn't translate to all people at higher positions presenting a case for getting a raise that reflects their job performance (which is how you get a raise) and higher up positions are hired at salaries that are: a. Whatever you NEGOTIATE and given raises at b. whatever you NEGOTIATE! Thats why negotiation is such an important aspect of hiring and business in general.
I know about negotiating wages and benefits packages, believe me (more on that later). I also know about turnover when people feel they are being treated or paid unfairly. Losing someone with more skills, experience, etc is much more expensive to a company than losing someone in an entry level job.
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Hourly employees have very little if any power to negotiate - the wage is usually set and not flexible.
This depends on the type of industry, the skill set of the employee involved, their experience and quality of work, dependability, etc. An hourly worker who has proven themselves on the job often has some negotiating power.
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When you say "most businesses" can you give some examples from your life or cite an article please that supports your point? Thanks Kathryn!
Yes, I can and you're welcome. Here's that "more on that later" part.
I spent about fifteen years of my career working in HR consulting and the staffing industry, which entailed getting to know company structures, policies, pay scales, wage and hour laws, etc for a wide variety of industries. I have had literally HUNDREDS of customers in every sort of industry - from oil and gas to banking to car dealerships, restaurants, manufacturers, you name it. Mom and Pop to large corporations. I worked side by side with upper management - the owners, CFOs, Presidents, VPs, HR directors, all the way "down" to line supervisors, shift managers, etc. Not only did I write customized policies (including pay policies) for these customers, I also trained mid level management to implement these policies. I administered placement testing (including establishing baselines for successful hiring and retaining), helped interview potential employees from upper management to hourly workers, etc etc etc
I have also been a sales manager (several times over), a corporate trainer for an international company, an HR specialist, and a bank manager for a large bank for an additional ten years. My husband and I currently own our own oil and gas consulting company and he works as an independent contractor - not sure if you're familiar with the term but he's what's called a "company man" which means he hires and coordinates every crew and every service company on an oil or gas location. Though he's the one "on location," he and I often consult with each other on issues involving wage and hour, EEOC, safety, and general hiring and management scenarios.
I dont know why I put law firm in there with Petco. Must have been tired. I made $18/ hr and up as a paralegal. (2008-2013)
These are not the only jobs Ive had but to give you an idea:
2000- Age 18 - 0 work exp. except babysitting - $8/hr as a barista at a chain
2006- Age 25 - receptionist for a real estate company, family owned - $14/hr
Btw...being a recptionist there required zero brains and a little bit of charm
Being a barista was harder. But the pay did not reflect that...so you can't alwys assume that pay
Is commensurate with skill level.
I can say that I made more money before 9-11- since then NOT yet achieved the same salary- I have a very solid job, but as some things in life occur, I took a P/T to clean up some debts. What I do see, regardless of my knowledge etc, the middle jobs are paying less, and everything else is going up faster than we can keep up. It's scary. I think the people eaters will eventually come out because hunger will be massive in the direction we are going. I see big blue containers for trash and 1 driver picks up the trash saved 3 jobs... Ok- now these jobs fit someone just right--(shoot in NY they made $30 hr,) now were do these fellas go?? It is a fact NOT all can be Drs.,,, we need to have reasonable wages and JOBS for people to make it. PEOPLE need to eat and they have taken away the fishing poles...
Oh give me a break. We're not talking about the ABILITIES of the people making minimum wage, or their value as a PERSON. We're talking about the skill level/education required to do the job they're doing for minimum wage (and only 4.7 percent of the workforce is working for minimum wage).
But hey, if we're giving away money to people who need it, why even make anyone work for it? Why not just give money (from somewhere...not sure where...a money tree I guess) to those who need it the most and to heck with skill sets, job descriptions, education, experience...those aren't what matters in the workplace after all, right?
Maybe the woman working in the cafeteria at the hospital needs the money more than the RN in charge of the nurses in the NICU. Maybe we should just pay her more, well, because she has three kids at home. That RN is single - we can take it from her salary - she won't mind because she doesn't need the money as much as the woman working in the cafeteria.
This reminds me of a situation that my husband ran into a few weeks ago on his job. He noticed that he was getting a worse schedule than one of his co workers (they get paid by the day). My husband has more experience and a much better work record (reliability, fewer mistakes, etc) than this other guy. He asked about the disparity, and he was told, "Well, Joe has two house payments now because he bought another house before his first one sold, and now he can't get the first one sold for anything - so he needs more money." WHAT? So Joe gets the better schedule because he's been more irresponsible? Because he was stupid enough to buy a house before his first one sold? So the responsible person gets the shaft?
I have to ask you- who is at fault? 1- Joe cause he made a bad move, thinking his home be sold, now hes in a wad of mess...
but maybe deal fell through?? thing come out of nowhere in real estate stuff. ( don't make man ""stupid"")
2- the employerfor considering him in his predicament. aww poor guy
3- your hubby for not speaking up and saying Heck no,,,this is not right. ( prob anti-union)
something similar hap to me during my maternity leave- gave my job to a man with a higher salary _ "OH well he has to raise a family"- said my boss-- hmm
he lasted 2 weeks after I called the union-I got my job back with that rate of pay-
POINT- we need to do was is right,,, and if you cant do it on your own.. then it must be enforced for the good of all. Corporations are NOT doing what is right,
I have to ask you- who is at fault? 1- Joe cause he made a bad move, thinking his home be sold, now hes in a wad of mess...
but maybe deal fell through?? thing come out of nowhere in real estate stuff. ( don't make man ""stupid"")
Actually, we know the scenario. He just fell in love with another house before his house sold - he had no contract or even offer on his house when he bought the new one. So yes - I stand by this - what he did was stupid.
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2- the employer
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for considering him in his predicament. aww poor guy
It's not a company's business to bail people out when they make dumb PERSONAL financial decisions - not at the expense of other workers. It's not like his wife has cancer or their house burned down - he just decided to buy a $400,000 house before his $300,000 house sold.
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3- your hubby for not speaking up and saying Heck no,,,this is not right. ( prob anti-union)
Actually my husband DID speak up. And I have no idea why you brought the idea of a union into this - there's no union involved. All involved are independent contractors working in a group of consultants.
But no worries - my husband just got offered another job at higher pay with a better schedule - with a different company altogether, so...everything will be fine, no thanks to his current company.
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something similar hap to me during my maternity leave- gave my job to a man with a higher salary _ "OH well he has to raise a family"- said my boss-- hmm
he lasted 2 weeks after I called the union-I got my job back with that rate of pay
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As far as I know, there's no union for oil and gas consultants who are independent contractors.
Kathryn - great post thank you - can you please give one example of a company and what kind where mid level people threatened to quit after a raise in minimum wage? Thank you.
No easy answers here...on the one hand, not everyone is smart enough to go to college and get a high paying job. For some people working in fast food is living up to the best of their ability and if they are willing to work hard and put in 40 hours a week, then I do think they should get paid enough to be able to afford a place to live, buy food, and other basic necessities. That's why people go on welfare and sit at home. Why bother to work when you can make more doing nothing staying at home? If we want people to take care of themselves and not rely on government help, then they should be able to work 40 hours and actually be able to take care of themselves.
However, I think 15 dollars an hour is too much. I only made 12 dollars an hour at my first job out of college! I also think part of the problem is that people nowadays count iPhones and expensive cell phone plans, cable, big screen flat TV's, etc. as part of basic necessities when they are not.
At what wage will these welfare people get off their asses and go to work? I mean the people you describe. not the people who have a genuine need for temporary financial aid. What number will work for them?
You can't just change the wage based on deciding that some people can't do any better. The job is worth what it's worth.
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Originally Posted by Kineticity
Cellphones have largely replaced landlines, and a phone is a necessity. Over-the-air TV is digital now, so you can't pick up the signal on a non-digital TV... Most digital TVs are flat screen. Want to watch on an old analog TV? Then you have to get cable, because that still down-converts to analog (for probably a few more years). If a person can have neither a digital TV nor cable/satellite, then they don't get to watch TV. If the whole reason they're working a low-end job is because they're not to bright, they probably aren't going to sirens their free time reading, so just what should they be permitted to do for entertainment?
And internet access is pretty much a need for a functional life (given that email has replaced most paper correspondence and many people pay bills online because it's cheaper than purchasing money orders or checks). Internet these days is, more often than not, a service of the cable company.
A digital converter box can be found at most thrift shops for less than $20. That and antenna will allow for OTA reception of digital broadcast and playback on older TVs. Few people need cable to pick up TV, but the real question is "Who cares about TV when we're talking about the minimal necessitiesof life?".
Internet can be had at libraries and many other places for free, or on the smart phone for a small fee. I agree that people should have some way to communicate, but again, we're talking a level of necessity. Convenience is for people who can afford it.
Kathryn - great post thank you - can you please give one example of a company and what kind where mid level people threatened to quit after a raise in minimum wage? Thank you.
I can, Walmart. My wife worked at a Walmart when minimum wage went up. Walmart not being one to pay exactly minimum wage naturally raised the starting pay but not the pay of those already in jobs at the same level and above. Needless to say it caused an uproar in the break room which filtered back to management. Next thing you know there was a small pay bump for everyone, a pizza party or two and a couple of employee retention programs instituted.
Employees always talk, salary is supposed to be confidential under threat of termination but I can tell you with certainty that it'll be common knowledge within days if not hours or minutes of someone new being paid more for the same job.
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Originally Posted by lycos679 View Post
McD's is paying $10-$12+ just to start.
McDonalds Jobs, Employment in North Dakota | Indeed.com
Same thing happened in NW Montana a few years ago. Several large stores opened at the same time causing a labor shortage so everyone from Walmart to Taco Bell had to compete for the same small pool of people resulting in wages temporarily shooting way up. You'd not believe the fires that were lit in the businesses by the current employees when they found out newbies were being paid the same or in some cases more than than they were.
Needless to say this pay hike didn't last very long.
People can't do their banking and bill paying on a public computer at the library, genius. It isn't secure. I'm sure you think a case of identity theft wiping out what little a person has when they don't have much to begin with is EXACTLY what poor people need, right? Also, digital converter boxes cost a hell of a lot more than $20.
Put down the bong and pay attention.
It's almost 2014. A secure internet connection is not a convenience; it's a necessity of modern life.
People can't do their banking and bill paying on a public computer at the library, genius. It isn't secure. I'm sure you think a case of identity theft wiping out what little a person has when they don't have much to begin with is EXACTLY what poor people need, right? Also, digital converter boxes cost a hell of a lot more than $20.
Put down the bong and pay attention.
It's almost 2014. A secure internet connection is not a convenience; it's a necessity of modern life.
Uh, sorry. Epic fail. The secure connection is created by the Bank server. In the case of my bank it specifically asks if you're on a public computer. In fact I'd bet it's much safer to use the Library computer than your laptop at the local starbucks or any other WIFI account.
So no, you don't HAVE to have a personal internet connect "genius".
Kathryn - great post thank you - can you please give one example of a company and what kind where mid level people threatened to quit after a raise in minimum wage? Thank you.
There hasn't been a significant bump (as we're discussing on this thread, of a 30 percent increase) in minimum wage to compare this to.
However, I can give numerous examples of having to raise the pay levels of basically ALL hourly workers when minimum wage increases kick in. Just about every company I've ever had as a customer has had to increase pay across the board as minimum wage increases were implemented - even though other than restaurant/fast food companies, I don't recall ANY other customers who even had minimum wage jobs.
But here's the deal - when minimum wage or entry level jobs are $7 an hour, low skilled entry level jobs are often in the $8 -$10 an hour tier. When minimum wage/entry level kicks up to $8, your hourly employees who are already hired, already working, are not happy with minimum wage - nor should they be (for the record, other than fast food/restaurant, I generally would not even take as a client a company which paid entry level workers minimum wage - that's not the norm in this area).
So all hourly rates bump up, and if they don't, you experience turnover. It's a fact of life. I've seen it happen over and over again, not only with my customers but when I worked in management. Frankly, you have to pay more to retain good employees - and the workplace is still competitive in that regard. The best workers will always gravitate to the best pay and that pay is going to be "set" by where minimum wage starts - where you DON'T want to be - and how far above minimum wage starting pay is. The tiers start upward from that point, and the higher minimum wage is, the higher the next tier, and the next one, etc has to be. This impacts ALL hourly and salaried pay structures (till you get above middle management in most cases). If starting pay is $9 and then you get a dollar an hour raise once you've been there a certain amount of time, and then another dollar or two on the next tier, etc etc then it's simply common sense and common math skills to recognize that when you raise the first bar, you have to raise them all.
And yes, I've worked in several companies where starting pay was an issue that impacted across the board. Banking, for instance. My tellers with no experience started out at $9 an hour. I PROMISE you that if an experienced teller who was now making $11 an hour found out that someone with no experience, whose hand she basically had to hold till they gained that experience, was only making $40 a week less than her...she was going to start looking for another job out of anger, frustration, etc. And rightly so. If an entry level worker's work is worth $10 an hour, then a more experienced worker's work is surely worth $12 an hour, not just $11. And then you have the deal with the entry level salaried workers (banking experience and/or college required but very entry level), whose "salary" equaled about $24,000 a year. Well, that's only $12 an hour for a forty hour work week. There is NO WAY they are going to be satisfied with that if an hourly worker is making the same amount but the salaried position requires more banking experience or more education - where's the reward in that? They are going to demand at least a $3000 - $4000 a year raise, and once again, I wouldn't blame them. Their position requires more experience and expertise and responsibility.
And yes - I've experienced exactly this scenario on the job myself. Actually, I'll take it even further. When the bank I worked for raised entry level job pay, it IMMEDIATELY impacted branch salaried positions pay. When that bumped up, all the managers, myself included, said, "Hey, wait a minute - now we're only making the equivalent of $20 an hour and some of our salaried employees are making just a little under that (their pay increased because entry level pay increased). But we've got MUCH more experience and have MUCH more responsibility - and work longer hours!" In fact, I figured out that with the additional HOURS that we worked, the managers were making LESS THAN A DOLLAR MORE PER HOUR than many of the salaried or experienced tellers were making. I watched managers quit left and right - and then I quit too.
I am not going to give you specific names of specific former customers of mine, so I guess you will just have to take my word for it, or call me a liar. Doesn't really matter to me.
Last edited by KathrynAragon; 12-18-2013 at 08:33 AM..
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