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First, there is nothing unlawful about reporting a suspicious person to the police, then, while still on the phone with the police, following that person to keep him in sight so that you can tell the dispatcher where the officers can find the SP when they arrive in the area. Right away there is a legal problem with Martin's response to being followed, because there was nothing unlawful about Zimmerman's initial conduct.
you're right!
There was nothing unlawful about his conduct. But he was told by the dispatcher, "we don't need you to do that.
At that point,go back to your car get in and wait!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogre
Second, even the perceived threat when someone appears to be following you is no more than a potential threat, not the imminent threat of harm necessary to justify use of force in self-defense. Legally, "imminent," as in imminent threat in cases of self-defense, means imminent. It means that the person being threatened must act in the moment to defend himself, or be attacked in the next moment. Even allowing for the fact that for all Martin knew Zimmerman could have been intending to mug him, the mere act of following falls well short of the imminent threat of harm.
Potential definition:
"Possible but not yet actual"
If you're out taking a stroll and some guy starts running towards and following you, how would you handle it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogre
Combined with some other key evidence (lack of evidence showing any physical aggression by GZ against TM when they first came face to face, the dispatcher's testimony and the transcript of GZ's complete conversation with the dispatcher) this adds up to some solid indication that Martin arrived back home after having perceived a potential but not imminent threat, and after even that potential threat had ended, instead of just going inside and letting that be the end of it, Martin went back toward the front of the complex, looking to start trouble with Zimmerman.
We all agree that was a poor decision from a 17 year old.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogre
The issue of who was right or wrong seems to be affecting a lot of the discussion of this case, on this thread and others. From a legal standpoint, though, including the question of whether Zimmerman should even have been charged with any crime and put on trial, it does not matter--or at least should not matter--whether you or I or Jane L. Customer down the street thinks that either or both people involved in the incident did anything wrong. All that should matter legally is that there is zero evidence that Zimmerman broke any law whatsoever, and in fact there is a fair amount of evidence indicating affirmatively that he did not break any law.
Legally in Stanford Fl, he was within the Law. But That still doesn't resolve the poor decision making on Zimmerman's behalf.
Taking prescription Drugs while on watch and not staying in the car were poor decisions.
I believe in helping Leo's as much possible, until the point it starts to endanger your own life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogre
He'd be alive today if he'd called the police.
Agree
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogre
However, it's important to keep in mind that a black youth from a ghetto area (at least sort of ghetto) may not have absorbed the idea that you automatically just call the police when you think there may be trouble.
Although TM had a checkered past,his Mom and Brother are educated people. I have no reason believe TM prescribed to the notion That, "all black kids from the ghetto think all cops are bad" We Don't know if TM prescribed to that theory,because we didn't know Trayvon Martin. We Can assume, but you know what happens when you assume.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogre
Keeping that reality in mind does not mean that George Zimmerman had any obligation to lie there and let himself get beaten to death or whatever.
If he stayed in the car and let the police do their job maybe he doesn't get beaten. It was no secret that GZ was actually Anti Leo, hence why he mentioned ,"they always get away"
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogre
Still the idea that it might not automatically occur to a black ghetto kid to call the police lends itself more to a broader understanding of the case than to a discussion of the legal issues. The reality that you can't necessarily say that Martin should have "just called the police"
Why Not? We don't know how TM was raised. I think you may be assuming that since TM had a checkered past that he prescribed to the ghetto mentality, all cops are bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogre
[b] also lends support to those who view this case largely as a tragic misunderstanding.
GZ Mistook TM for a burglar and then started following him. I think that alone is a big misunderstanding. The fact that a young man(not some animal) lost his life is always going to be tragic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringo1
Zimmerman wasn't doing so well before he shot and killed Martin, as I recall.
He would do well to stay off our television screens, IMO.
This is another pathetic attempt to stay relevant and in the limelight.
That's what im afraid of!
My Uncle is a Leo for NYPD. He has never really recovered from the 2 times he's used his service weapon to take another mans life (even though it was self defense).
This guy on the other hand can't stay off my damn T.V.
Whether what happened that night in Florida was correct, wrong or indifferent, Zimmerman is serving a life sentence probably far greater then he ever would in a prison. The man is the most hated person in America. He's a target and make no doubt about it, sooner or later, someone will get him. I'm condoning this, just stating it is the way it is.
I have no idea if the shooting that night was justified or not. I tend to think it was not, but I wasn't there and the way our court system is setup, there was no way to prove it either way and the jury had no choice.
Anyone here like to trade shoes with Zimmerman? That's what I thought. The man will rot away, if he's not whacked sooner.
Zimmerman wasn't doing so well before he shot and killed Martin, as I recall.
He would do well to stay off our television screens, IMO.
This is another pathetic attempt to stay relevant and in the limelight.
No, it's a stuggle to put cash in his bank account.
He owes his lawyers >1.5mil still and is utterly unemployable. (hell, he was before the incident eh?)
Doesn't change how we feel about the guy but if he'd been trying to stay relevant and in the limelight there are any number of TV shows that would LOVE to put him on for an interview....and would pay him.
you're right!
There was nothing unlawful about his conduct. But he was told by the dispatcher, "we don't need you to do that.
At that point,go back to your car get in and wait!
I'll have to look at the 911 transcript again, but you pretty much nailed the verbiage with "we don't need", as in, we don't require you.
Take a look at the transcript and you'll see that the 911 operator continues to ask Zimmerman about Martin following "we don't need you to follow him". They are questions that Zimmerman can only answer if he kept an eye on Martin. Personally (since I can't read the 911 operator's mind), I believe the "we don't need you" (to follow him) was thrown out there as almost a release of liability in case Zimmerman were put in danger. Think about it, most of the time when someone is asked to do something they aren't comfortable with or has a bit of danger, the general way of asking it is along the lines of "it would be great if you could ____, but you don't have to if you feel _____".
I believe if the 911 operator wanted Zimmerman to stay put, the operator would have stated, "sir, we need you to stay in your truck" or "sir, we do not want you following him". Those are the words that instruct you not to do something.
We know that there had been a lot of crime in this neighborhood, break-ins were a major problem. We know the police had been called many times. We know few arrests had been made. Personally, if I had called the cops before to have them show up and essentially say, "well, since we don't know where he went, there is nothing we can do but take a report", I'd certainly want to be able to point to a person and say, "there is someone who doesn't live here who looks and is behaving strange, please check him out" once the cops arrived. To me, that would be reasonable.
I'll have to look at the 911 transcript again, but you pretty much nailed the verbiage with "we don't need", as in, we don't require you.
Take a look at the transcript and you'll see that the 911 operator continues to ask Zimmerman about Martin following "we don't need you to follow him". They are questions that Zimmerman can only answer if he kept an eye on Martin. Personally (since I can't read the 911 operator's mind), I believe the "we don't need you" (to follow him) was thrown out there as almost a release of liability in case Zimmerman were put in danger. Think about it, most of the time when someone is asked to do something they aren't comfortable with or has a bit of danger, the general way of asking it is along the lines of "it would be great if you could ____, but you don't have to if you feel _____".
I believe if the 911 operator wanted Zimmerman to stay put, the operator would have stated, "sir, we need you to stay in your truck" or "sir, we do not want you following him". Those are the words that instruct you not to do something.
We know that there had been a lot of crime in this neighborhood, break-ins were a major problem. We know the police had been called many times. We know few arrests had been made. Personally, if I had called the cops before to have them show up and essentially say, "well, since we don't know where he went, there is nothing we can do but take a report", I'd certainly want to be able to point to a person and say, "there is someone who doesn't live here who looks and is behaving strange, please check him out" once the cops arrived. To me, that would be reasonable.
You Do Make a very good point!
If it was me,I would have went back to my car.I don't know weapon he may have.
I have this,whole self preservation thing going on and when I feel danger I Stop!
You Do Make a very good point!
If it was me,I would have went back to my car.I don't know weapon he may have.
I have this,whole self preservation thing going on and when I feel danger I Stop!
Don't get me wrong, Zimmerman put himself in a dangerous situation by following a "suspicious person". Personally, I would have stayed in the car; however, I wasn't going through the frustration of ongoing crime in my neighborhood, which could potentially change that for me. (It's much easier to assume what you'd do behind a keyboard than in the actual situation).
For me, the whole thing hinges on the fact that Zimmerman watching Martin until the police arrive, even if he got out of his car against the recommendation of a 911 operator (not the police), was a fully legal, yet somewhat dangerous action.
Assuming that Martin did physically assault Zimmerman because he didn't like being followed, Martin broke the law. I also feel that once a stranger has broken your nose and is on top of you beating your head into the ground, many reasonable people would fear for their lives. I know I would. A person yelling at me, approaching me or verbal threatening me makes me fear for my safety, but a person on top of me pounding my head into the ground makes me fear for my life.
Even though, in my present state of mind, I wouldn't have gotten out of the truck to follow him myself, I don't believe the actions of Zimmerman were unreasonable, because I can reasonably see a person frustrated with home break-ins in his neighborhood wanting to not lose track of a suspicious person while waiting for police that are only a few minutes away.
Edit: BTW, two other times that 911 calls were recorded of Zimmerman reporting suspicious activity, both times when the operator asked for details, Zimmerman said that he "didn't want to attract attention" and "I don't want to approach him, personally". Both times, neither suspect was questioned by police because they were unable to locate them.
Last edited by PedroMartinez; 02-19-2014 at 04:06 PM..
Whether what happened that night in Florida was correct, wrong or indifferent, Zimmerman is serving a life sentence probably far greater then he ever would in a prison. The man is the most hated person in America. He's a target and make no doubt about it, sooner or later, someone will get him. I'm condoning this, just stating it is the way it is.
I have no idea if the shooting that night was justified or not. I tend to think it was not, but I wasn't there and the way our court system is setup, there was no way to prove it either way and the jury had no choice.
Anyone here like to trade shoes with Zimmerman? That's what I thought. The man will rot away, if he's not whacked sooner.
You know what? Zimmerman could probably redeem himself and there are still many, many people who DO support his actions that night.
My goodness. If Monica Lewinsky managed to stay out of the limelight and get on with her life, so should Mr. Zimmerman.
Get a job, be a decent and thoughtful human being, and quit doing such stupid things.
It's really not that hard. Perhaps some counseling is in order and please - pay your attorneys. Did he think they would work for free?
Don't get me wrong, Zimmerman put himself in a dangerous situation by following a "suspicious person". Personally, I would have stayed in the car; however, I wasn't going through the frustration of ongoing crime in my neighborhood, which could potentially change that for me. (It's much easier to assume what you'd do behind a keyboard than in the actual situation).
For me, the whole thing hinges on the fact that Zimmerman watching Martin until the police arrive, even if he got out of his car against the recommendation of a 911 operator (not the police), was a fully legal, yet somewhat dangerous action.
Assuming that Martin did physically assault Zimmerman because he didn't like being followed, Martin broke the law. I also feel that once a stranger has broken your nose and is on top of you beating your head into the ground, many reasonable people would fear for their lives. I know I would. A person yelling at me, approaching me or verbal threatening me makes me fear for my safety, but a person on top of me pounding my head into the ground makes me fear for my life.
Even though, in my present state of mind, I wouldn't have gotten out of the truck to follow him myself, I don't believe the actions of Zimmerman were unreasonable, because I can reasonably see a person frustrated with home break-ins in his neighborhood wanting to not lose track of a suspicious person while waiting for police that are only a few minutes away.
Edit: BTW, two other times that 911 calls were recorded of Zimmerman reporting suspicious activity, both times when the operator asked for details, Zimmerman said that he "didn't want to attract attention" and "I don't want to approach him, personally". Both times, neither suspect was questioned by police because they were unable to locate them.
How was he suspicious???? Because he was black????? Zimmerman racially profiled him and then stalked him and later killed him.
I used to live in a neighborhood with high crime. I even saw young teens walking around my neighborhood and wondered if any of them was the one the broke in my house. But at the end of the day I knew I didn't know who did it and it and didn't call the police everytime I saw a young teen walking around my neighborhood...nor did I follow them to see what they were up to.
The only way he would have been justified is if he actually witnessed Trayvonn attempting to break in someone's house.
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