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Am I the only one who doesn't know anyone with a bachelor's degree working at McDonald's/Wendy's/Burger King after at least one year post-graduation? I keep hearing of this, but am yet to see it. And I highly doubt any of the workers I encounter in these establishments have completed degrees. If they do, they're simply not looking hard enough, as there are plenty higher-paying jobs out there that will hire people with any kind of Bachelor's degree. Many higher-paying call centers (~$15/hour), for example, will be quick to hire virtually anyone with post-secondary education. I know of several companies that operate nationwide that are always hiring.
While I've seen plenty of middle aged people (in their late 30s, 40s, and perhaps even 50s) working in FF as managers, supervisors, and basic positions, I will say I don't know their education level. All I can say is there are quite a few of them, and such positions are hardly limited to the ideal college sophomore or high schooler doing it PT.
If others have info on this, I'd like to hear about it too.
Once again we disagree 2sleepy, The Heritage Institute, American Enterprise Institute, and The National Review are considered respectable conservative think tanks, not right wing organizations. Regardless, why would a particular viewpoint invalidate their opinion and argument for their theory, it may be as valid as any of your socialist leaning articles. I happen to believe the predictions of the conservative viewpoint are more likely to happen. Just because the articles you've embraced don't necessarily pronounce their political affiliation doesn't make them more valid, until the experiment is over it's all theory. The problem is, once we commit to the experiment, the outcome could result in good results, or bad.
I would like to start by commending both snowtired and 2sleepy for keeping the debate civil. I tend to side with 2sleepy on this one and would like to point out that the minimum wage has been raised in the past with mixed results. It's not like this is an experiment that has no historical precedence.
I pulled this from Politifact, which I like to think of as relatively neutral:
The CBO studied this as well and their conclusions support the assertion that several people would lose their jobs, but it would also lift several more above the poverty line, which would get them off federal assistance. I'm willing to make that trade off.
Am I the only one who doesn't know anyone with a bachelor's degree working at McDonald's/Wendy's/Burger King after at least one year post-graduation? I keep hearing of this, but am yet to see it. And I highly doubt any of the workers I encounter in these establishments have completed degrees. If they do, they're simply not looking hard enough, as there are plenty higher-paying jobs out there that will hire people with any kind of Bachelor's degree. Many higher-paying call centers (~$15/hour), for example, will be quick to hire virtually anyone with post-secondary education. I know of several companies that operate nationwide that are always hiring.
I agree, but that's all part of the same unsupported argument that claims there are people working in nursing or engineering and making $15 an hour, i.e. "how would you feel if you were a nurse and now a burger flipper earned more than you?" (My ex DIL is an RN and makes $60 an hour lol). The other 'argument' offered to defend an absurdly low minimum wage is this: "why $15? give them $30 an hour".
The argument that people who are opposed to a minimum wage increase can't (or won't) answer is: How can you justify a minimum wage so low that taxpayers have to provide as much, or more, in social service benefits to employees as they earn from their job?
I agree, but that's all part of the same unsupported argument that claims there are people working in nursing or engineering and making $15 an hour, i.e. "how would you feel if you were a nurse and now a burger flipper earned more than you?" (My ex DIL is an RN and makes $60 an hour lol). The other 'argument' offered to defend an absurdly low minimum wage is this: "why $15? give them $30 an hour".
The argument that people who are opposed to a minimum wage increase can't (or won't) answer is: How can you justify a minimum wage so low that taxpayers have to provide as much, or more, in social service benefits to employees as they earn from their job?
Define "nurse" and "engineer."
I work in for a utility engineering firm. Starting pay for an A.S. Engineering holder is $16-$18/hour. Some would call these guys engineers, even though they have what is considered to be the bottom-end entry-level position in the industry.
Now, an A.S. holder with 5 years under his belt should not accept anything short of $25/hour, at which point they should be fully trained as either Engineers or Engineering Technologists. Pay scale for these guys can go anywhere from $25 to $40+/hour. BSE holders generally start off at $25+/hour.
An LPN is a nurse. LPNs make anywhere from $14-$20/hour.
Some CNA's call (fallaciously) themselves nurses, too. They make $9-$12/hour in most cases.
RNs (which is what most people imagine when thinking "nurse") make $19+/hour depending on education level and experience. One with an A.S. in nursing will typically be an RN between $19-$25/hour, whereas a BSN holder can exceed $30/hour.
So yes, some engineers and nurses DO make barely above $15/hour.
This $60/hour as an RN is where, exactly? Such an hourly rate (or anything even remotely close to that) for an RN is unheard of in most locations. Nurse practitioners average $40-$50/hour and require Masters' degrees.
That's interesting. I don't know much about A.S. in nursing, but my mom, sister in law & one of my cousins are nurses. Now that I think about it, I also have an aunt who is a nurse.
My mom made about 45K in the 80s, and retired in the early 2000s making 80K. My sister in law has been working for about a decade and now makes 80-90k according to my brother. I was helping my cousin with her house hunt so she volunteered that she has very few expenses and makes 55k a year. She's been out of school for about 2-3 yrs now. Either way, none of these amazing women are in danger of a ff worker catching up to their income.
That's interesting. I don't know much about A.S. in nursing, but my mom, sister in law & one of my cousins are nurses. Now that I think about it, I also have an aunt who is a nurse.
My mom made about 45K in the 80s, and retired in the early 2000s making 80K. My sister in law has been working for about a decade and now makes 80-90k according to my brother. I was helping my cousin with her house hunt so she volunteered that she has very few expenses and makes 55k a year. She's been out of school for about 2-3 yrs now. Either way, none of these amazing women are in danger of a ff worker catching up to their income.
Right. And I'm pretty sure those aren't the ones complaining. My wife hires LPNs for her nursing company, and from what she told me, she starts them at $17/hour and it's a fairly competitive in the industry. The national LPN average salary is around $18/hour, and it doesn't seem to vary much with experience.
Define "nurse" and "engineer."
I work in for a utility engineering firm. Starting pay for an A.S. Engineering holder is $16-$18/hour. Some would call these guys engineers, even though they have what is considered to be the bottom-end entry-level position in the industry. Now, an A.S. holder with 5 years under his belt should not accept anything short of $25/hour, at which point they should be fully trained as either Engineers or Engineering Technologists. Pay scale for these guys can go anywhere from $25 to $40+/hour. BSE holders generally start off at $25+/hour.
I have no idea what engineers earn but by your own admission lowest starting wage in your experience is $16 an hour and I doubt if they stay at that salary for very long. In any case, a $15 minimum wage should bump the salaries of those engineers up a bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcenal352
An LPN is a nurse. LPNs make anywhere from $14-$20/hour.
Some CNA's call (fallaciously) themselves nurses, too. They make $9-$12/hour in most cases.
RNs (which is what most people imagine when thinking "nurse") make $19+/hour depending on education level and experience. One with an A.S. in nursing will typically be an RN between $19-$25/hour, whereas a BSN holder can exceed $30/hour..
This $60/hour as an RN is where, exactly? Such an hourly rate (or anything even remotely close to that) for an RN is unheard of in most locations. Nurse practitioners average $40-$50/hour and require Masters' degrees.
I don't sit here and make crap up, my ex daughter in law works in Northern California for Kaiser Hospital
Right. And I'm pretty sure those aren't the ones complaining. My wife hires LPNs for her nursing company, and from what she told me, she starts them at $17/hour and it's a fairly competitive in the industry. The national LPN average salary is around $18/hour, and it doesn't seem to vary much with experience.
I don't think there are many people that think people that are RNs or in engineering make less than $15.
I can tell you though that a lot of the 'nurses' working in nursing homes that are more aides rather than RNs usually make less than $15. My grandmother is in a nursing home and most of them make less than $10 there.
There is also the question of why people are applying and signing up for and working jobs that can't pay their expenses...when there are other jobs out there that pay more. Another good question is why are people having children when they know they won't be able to support them?
Why do taxpayers HAVE to support people that continue to make poor choices and act irresponsible. I'm not saying that all fast food or minimum wage workers are this way. But, if you want to be ignorant and just have child after child and not want to further yourself...why should taxpayers have to support that.
Look around , taxpayers are suffering too...and these are people that spent years on their education and money. I'm not saying everyone that goes to college should make $100,000 starting off the bat...but many college grads aren't much better off than those working minimum wage and have the Section 8 free housing or mostly free housing, the Obama phone, food stamps, this program ,that program to pay their expenses.
Oh you just had another kid out of wedlock? Oh Great, you can now qualify for MORE money....courtesy of the tax payers!
This would not be a big deal if the middle class were thriving ...but that's obviously not the case.
This is why you are seeing Hilary Clinton focus her campaign on improving conditions for the middle class.
I would like to start by commending both snowtired and 2sleepy for keeping the debate civil. I tend to side with 2sleepy on this one and would like to point out that the minimum wage has been raised in the past with mixed results. It's not like this is an experiment that has no historical precedence.
I pulled this from Politifact, which I like to think of as relatively neutral:
The CBO studied this as well and their conclusions support the assertion that several people would lose their jobs, but it would also lift several more above the poverty line, which would get them off federal assistance. I'm willing to make that trade off.
First of all, thanks for the props, I respect 2sleepy's point of view and he seems to respect mine, the conversation has been focused on either of our philosophies and neither of us is likely to change our minds, but the debate is respectful and not devolving into an argument or insults. Although we are each on either end of this issue, we would probably agree that the ultimate solution will likely be somewhere in the middle.
If only our politicians could do the same.
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