What the #$%@ is wrong with Denver drivers when it comes to snow? (Pierce: houses, school)

[soscrewed]

Originally Posted by EscapeCalifornia

I believe that price is for the whole day: 1/2 day in class and 1/2 day behind the wheel. You're also paying for an experienced instructor to ride shotgun with you.

You also are driving their vehicles, which may or may not handle anything like the vehicle you own.

If you have never driven in snow, it might be worth it, but most people would be better served by finding someplace to slide their own car, with their own tires, to figure out how their own car handles. I have RWD/4x4, AWD with stability and traction control, and FWD cars, and all of them handle completely differently. The RWD/4WD breaks the rear end loose in a very controlled manner, the car with stability slides sideways at the limit, and the FWD has a nasty snap oversteer when it breaks loose. All need to be driven differently.

The ice races at Georgetown are open to all, and are a safe way to explore your own car's handling. Finding an unplowed parking lot works, too. What ever happened to having fun with your car? When I was in high school we relished the prospect of powersliding our cars through empty lots, and we all learned how to drive in snow that way.

[bluescreen73]

I'd rather drive near someone who's going under the speed limit than the stereotypical 4WD-owning asshat who thinks they can scream down a slick snow and ice-packed road at the posted speed limit without ending up on their roof in the ditch.

People who drive too fast for conditions cause a hell of a lot more wrecks than those who are overly-cautious.

[Brian_M]

Originally Posted by EscapeCalifornia

I believe that price is for the whole day: 1/2 day in class and 1/2 day behind the wheel. You're also paying for an experienced instructor to ride shotgun with you.

Not to mention... what's your insurance deductible? Most people I know have either $500 or $1000, so by avoiding even ONE minor fender bender, it's paid for itself.


Now, if you're looking at 2~3 drivers taking it at the same time, yeah.... a bit more expensive. I really want my wife to take the class (she's from Georgia, I'm from Wyoming), but I don't want to miss out on the fun.


The main roads I hit this morning (Federal, Broadway/Lincoln and Speer) were NOT snow packed, they were wet with slush. The secondary roads (Florida, Mississippi, Evans) were slightly snow-packed but with lots of clear spaces, and residential streets are rutted with fluff on the sides. This was leaving at 7am and home before 8 (not quite double how long it normally takes). Of the 3 near-accidents I saw, 2 were from excessive gas, one from not giving enough braking distance. I'm not really looking forward to picking my wife up from work at 4, though I'll take the car this time around which ought to make it even easier (real snow tires). I sure do miss winter driving in Wyoming and Montana (lack of people freaking out, and fewer people out and about in total).

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by CosmicWizard

I think it comes down to a lack of experience driving on snow packed roads. For most of the winter, the Denver area roads are dry. People never acquire day in and day out experience driving on snow covered roads over the course of an entire winter. When I lived in Anchorage, many years ago, the city streets were snow packed most of the winter, which gave people an opportunity to get comfortable with it. In Colorado, unless a person lives in a higher elevation mountain town, or travels frequently in the mountains, the roads are free of snow and ice most of the time, so the majority of Colorado drivers simply don't get much practice driving in the snow. Newcomers to the Denver area from the New England states or the upper midwest are likely to be far more experienced driving on snow covered roads than most longtime Denverites.

That is true, as well. Also, far too many of today's drivers have grown to rely on the "crutch" of having roads treated with mag chloride, etc., so when the roads really do get bad, they don't have a clue how to handle it. I was fortunate in living for several years in towns where plowing was minimal and salt and the like were never used on sidestreets. They were snowpacked and icy all winter. Guess what? People knew how to drive on them. Accidents were minimal. Life went on.

[Pierce2011]

I can see both sides of this one. Years ago, when Denver used to actually get snow in the winter, I considered myself a very good driver in the snow. Now I simply can't remember having the opportunity to drive in it for the past couple of years for various reasons. I'm sure it's like riding a bike and it'll come back to me. I'll just post a warning before I get behind the wheel so you can be sure to stay off the streets.

But seriously, everyone who lives in Denver year round should know by now that you need to winterize your car every fall. Make sure your tires are good, fluids full, oil changed, the works. Do not be that person with your car stuck in a ditch or abandoned on the side of the road creating a road hazard for other drivers because you didn't take care of your car or prepare for a winter storm. Also, learn what your lower gears are for. Best winter driving advice I ever got was my parents teaching me how to gear down on icy snow packed roads. It'll save your brakes and help you avoid skidding. And the worst drivers on the road are usually the jerk in a light-duty pick up truck with no weight in the bed thinking he can just plow through at top speed. You will end up wrapped around a telephone pole.

[rockster3000]

Originally Posted by Katiana

I don't blame it all on "recent transplants", especially when so many of them are from the midwest, which gets plenty of snow for learning to drive. I've known many a CO native, including some who grew up in the mountains, that didn't know as much about snow driving as me.

Additionally, I don't get angry at anyone for taking it slow. If I feel I can drive safely a little faster than the guy ahead of me (happened yesterday on the way home from church), I wait until I can pass them.

Actually...if the Midwest transplants drive the same way there that they do here in snow, blame them! Everything the original poster complained about happens here when it snows or rains. And we get a decent amount of snow EVERY year. It's not like these people are seeing it for the first time, it's just bad driving.

I was hoping that Denver would have better winter drivers, but I guess not. Bummer...that's one of the many things I'm trying to get away from by moving to Denver. lol

[zenkonami]

Vehicle weight, road condition, snow condition (powder? ice?), temperature variations, visibility conditions, tire type, vehicle condition (engine? transmission? chassis condition?), inexperience, rapidly changing weather, concern about how OTHER people are driving in these conditions, additional stress about the uncertainty of traffic conditions (particularly during peak periods), news reports of pileups every time it snows, news reports of deaths and injuries, kids in the car, pets in the car, additional weight (or lack thereof), insurance premium costs...I don't know...I wonder why some people feel the need to SLOW DOWN a little when there is ice and snow packed on the road.

Look, I sympathize. I've ended up behind a couple people who were going slower than slow, probably for all these reasons. I dropped a ton of cash on snow tires (and will now be paying for them for a while) and it improved my handling dramatically, but maybe they didn't, or just couldn't afford snow tires. I also had an opportunity to take those tires out and give them a good spin in the snow, up and down hills, in shade and sun, so that probably helped, too.

But I still can't predict every condition out there, even while I feel comfortable going maybe 5mph under the limit instead of 15mph under. On the other hand, while I'm going 5mph under and leaving a little extra space between me and the car I'm following, some guy in an F150 comes up on my tail, clearly angry at me being incompetent when it comes to driving in the snow, with less than a car length between us (probably confident that HE can control his vehicle, because there are no other variables on the ride that he would have to take into account), flashes brights at me (I'm already in the act of passing someone in the right lane), making me less comfortable, and demands I hurry up and get in the other lane NOW so he can threaten the next driver attempting to co-operate with other drivers on the road so that we all reach our destinations safely.

I don't mean this personally (the royal "YOU", here), but I get it. Nobody knows how to drive but YOU (whoever YOU might be out there.) The rest of us need to learn to drive like YOU because your skills are masterful and perfect in a clearly "imperfect" vehicle situation (all weather tires, RWD.) Brian sounds like a sane, reasonable driver, but it seems a bit unfair to expect other people to exhibit perfect driving behavior in irregular circumstances. I'd rather people played it safe and we all get to our destinations eventually than uncomfortable drivers take chances in unfamiliar road conditions. For me, that's just the price we pay for sharing the road.

[ucbedge]

OP - Is the purpose of your post to encourage everybody to drive FASTER in the snow? Wow....

[Brian_M]

Originally Posted by zenkonami

....but it seems a bit unfair to expect other people to exhibit perfect driving behavior in irregular circumstances. I'd rather people played it safe and we all get to our destinations eventually than uncomfortable drivers take chances in unfamiliar road conditions. For me, that's just the price we pay for sharing the road.

Close, I expect the bell curve to be tighter in some place where it's not just a random occurrence of snow (like Atlanta, Ironically they drive better there as a whole when the ice storms hit... they freak out and clean out the stores, but they drive more consistently on a whole). I'm not Angry that people go slow (hey, you've got to go the speed you're comfortable ~ but there's a point that going TOO slow is just as much of a hazard as going too fast, if not more of a hazard), just frustrated that they Also freak out and take up both lanes, are riding their brakes the Entire time, etc... Hows that saying go, your rights/privileges end where mine begin?

If I'd seen people driving recklessly fast, I would have put that in the original post too. But I didn't see any of those people yesterday, either the calm and competent that were going faster than those who had some other limitation (the partial list you typed at first), those that were less confident and going just a Bit slower and those that were TOTALLY freaked out and were the biggest hazard to everyone on the roads. That last group are the focus, they needed to stay out of their cars until whatever limitation they have is rectified. Using the proper tool for the job and education go a LONG way towards helping those people be less of a hazard. I guess the same could be said for those who drive to aggressively (I was one of them on occasion until my Dr. put me on blood pressure meds). It's just too bad that organized education is so limited (one place in the country?) and expensive. How many would benefit if it were $100 and available in 3~4 places around the metro area + 1 place each in Boulder/Ft Collins/Springs/etc... It only takes a couple hours to learn the basics (not perfect, just experience and given a couple chances to correct).





ucbedge, you're an idiot if that's what you got out of my post(s).

[Timmyy]

This morning was the worst. Everybody was out for themselves and driving extremely aggressive. It was worse than yesterday when the snow had barely been plowed.