Would you vote for the proposed 0.4% FasTracks sales tax increase? (Denver: house, buying)

[BoulderWhitewater]

Originally Posted by denverian

When is the west line scheduled to open? Seems like they're nearing the end.

May 2013! It looks like its almost ready, but they are still designing the Sheridan and Wadsworth parking garages. Construction MOSTLY shut down over the winter, they do not appear to be in a hurry which is one reason they have lost public support.

The transcontinental railroad was built in 5 years using 1870 technology.
But rail to Boulder using EXISTING tracks will take twenty years. WTF!

[denverian]

Originally Posted by BoulderWhitewater

May 2013! It looks like its almost ready, but they are still designing the Sheridan and Wadsworth parking garages. Construction MOSTLY shut down over the winter, they do not appear to be in a hurry which is one reason they have lost public support.

The transcontinental railroad was built in 5 years using 1870 technology.
But rail to Boulder using EXISTING tracks will take twenty years. WTF!

Yeah, I don't get why it's taking so long. How long did it take to build the NYC subway system?

[KaaBoom]

Originally Posted by patrickfatrick

I can't speak to whether RTD is mismanaged. It may very well be true, but I don't think it wasn't really a "miscalculation" that lead us to where we are now, it was lack of sales tax dollars as a result of the recession, combined with increased costs BNSF put on RTD for use of the NW corridor railway. DRCOG, based on what was known at the time in 2004, approved the project and found it financially viable. There was no way to predict what happened in 2008 as far as RTD is concerned.

If it wasn't mismanagement, then explain why the Utah Transit Authority in the exact same economic climate was able build more rail, for less money, on budget and on time.

Originally Posted by patrickfatrick

AFAIK this is something else entirely. The tax increase for FasTracks doesn't contribute to current bus service. Individual route service is cut when there's a lack of demand, i.e. when people stop riding that bus route.

Wrong. You can read the entire text of it below. FasTracks not only contributes to current bus service, it promised a 24% increase in bus service. What have voters gotten for that? Massive decreases in bus service instead. Just another broken promise from RTD.

Referendum 4A raised the general RTD sales tax 0.4% from 0.6% to 1.0%.

The plan includes 119 miles of new rail lines to Golden, Lakewood, Arvada, Aurora, Boulder/Longmont, Commerce City, Northglenn, Thornton, and DIA, 18 miles of bus rapid transit along U.S. 36, expanded suburb to suburb bus service throughout the region, 21,000 additional parking spaces, 31 new Park-n-Rides, 57 new transit stations, and 24% more bus service.


http://www.broomfield.org/elections/RTD.pdf

[KaaBoom]

Originally Posted by denverian

Mmmm... I moved here in June of 2005 (almost 7 years ago) and since then the line to the DTC and up 225 opened up. And the western corridor appears to be near completion, with the line to the airport underway. It's not as if nothing has been done in 8 years.

The Southeast Line was already under construction before FastTracks. It would have been finished even without the tax increase. As of this time not one single mile of new rail in the FastTracks plan has been opened. Yet they are already preparing to ask voters for another tax increase.

As for the lines already under construction, I have no doubt that those lines will be finished up, and I have no doubt that RTD will go ahead and ask for another tax increase. And all indications I have seen is that they will be turned down, and work on Fastracks will wrap up.

Unless RTD can pull a rabbit out of a hat, and I can't see that happening. Even if RTD could convince Boulder County residents to approve another tax increase, so they could get their rail line. Metro Denver voters would have no reason to vote for it. Since they already will have their trains. They would have no reason to vote for it. The 2004 vote was successful becase everyone thought they would get something out of it. Thats no longer the case.

[davebarnes]

Originally Posted by denverian

Y How long did it take to build the NYC subway system?

cf. Second Avenue Subway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[davebarnes]

Originally Posted by BoulderWhitewater

The transcontinental railroad was built in 5 years using 1870 technology.

1. Non-union labor. No Davis-Bacon.
2. No EPA.
3. It was "far away".
4. No Army Corp of Engineers' meddling.

[BoulderWhitewater]

Originally Posted by davebarnes

1. Non-union labor. No Davis-Bacon.
2. No EPA.
3. It was "far away".
4. No Army Corp of Engineers' meddling.

You forgot to mention "Chinese Slaves"!
Different time, different regulations, different tools.

The point is we used to be a country that "got things done":

-transcontinental railroad
-Erie Canel
-Panama Canel
-interstate highway system
-man on the moon
-converted Detroit from cars to tanks in a year
-etc etc etc

Now it takes twenty years to put existing train technology on existing tracks. Drive or bike the West Line and tell me its going to take another
14 months to complete it....it looks 95% done now. It has taken 7+ years to get this far and most of the West Line is being built on existing
ROW. I'm going to read up on how Salt Lake City did theirs and why it is so different.

[AceShopper]

From the RTD website:

The first segment of the Northwest Rail Line from Denver Union Station to south Westminster
(71st Ave. and Lowell Blvd.) is already funded as part of the Eagle P3 project. This first segment
is 6.2 miles and scheduled for completion in 2016. Eagle P3 is also building the East Rail Line
to Denver International Airport and the Gold Line to Arvada and Wheat Ridge.

The segment from south Westminster to Church Ranch Blvd. would add another six miles and
would be funded from a new 0.4 percent sales tax if RTD has a successful sales tax election in
November. Between the two segments, RTD would complete 12 of the 41 miles of Northwest
Rail by 2022, which is 30 percent of the rail line.

[zenkonami]

Originally Posted by GoneNative

Here's the difference: Nobody is making you pay for their "putt-putt wagon," if by that you mean car. You do have to pay for highway projects, but you'll have to pay for those no matter how good public transportation is in Denver. Even New York pays for highways, even though a good many New Yorkers never drive on them. But a very small minority of metro area residents actually use RTD, and yet that small minority wants to pass the buck onto the other 90% who don't use RTD. If you love taking RTD, then nobody is stopping you and the other 10% from financing the system yourselves--except for the fact that that 10% wants to be subsidized by the other 90% who can afford it.

Goes back to the old argument about public benefit, which I won't rehash (too much) here. In the same way we can discuss the benefit of highways providing shipping routes, there are benefits for the public at large when it comes to public transportation in cities (though not outright equivocal, similar in principle.)

If we didn't have public transportation then our options would be pretty limited to "owning a car" and "owning a bike." Not a monopoly, but "owning a car" is certainly backed by a rather large special interest group intent upon us spending an inordinate amount of our income on consuming and fueling their "putt-putt wagons" to feed global misanthropy and corporate coffers in the name of progress and furthering the human race, regardless of the environmental and social costs.

Don't get me wrong...the car has it's place, and a rather large place...but it should not be the only option out there in an urban (or even suburban) environment. I don't frequent libraries much anymore or attend school, but I'm glad to support them because they help other people improve their education, which potentially makes life better for all of us. Likewise, I'd rather my money not fund foreign expeditions of imperial grandeur and power brokering in the implausible camouflage of "protecting our freedoms." A large percentage of my tax money is directed there regardless of my protestations because there is a vocal group of people that believe it is in the public interest.

And yes, my mention of "putt-putt wagon" was a witless retort referring to a car. I am equally put off by certain people's equally witless attempts at attaching the diminutive "choo-choo" to a train. If we're gonna have fun with it, then I suppose it's all fair game.

[zenkonami]

Originally Posted by AceShopper

Personally, I don't see any difference between a good BRT with exclusive HOV lanes -or, a light rail -or, a diesel rail for that matter. But apparently some people will NOT ride a bus but will gladly go on a rail going the same route and taking the same time. As long as the transport runs at a good clip, is convenient and does not cost more than using my car - I would go for it.

My problem is with the completion dates - 2020 : 2030 : 2040 ! Why does it take that long to build if there is pressing need *right now* ? If the dates were 2015 or sooner, I would agree to a sales tax increase.

A strong point. If we designed better buses, (particularly with dedicated right-of-ways) that were more comfortable and ran with higher frequency, then they might be a strong, viable alternative to rail. Dedicated right-of-ways allow increased speed, secure transit oriented development and enhance safety. Rail does, however, have the benefit of being able to carry more people in a trip (imagine the difficulty of a three to four car articulated bus), cheaper long term maintenance costs (people vastly underestimated the cost of maintaining and replacing buses and even roads over long periods of time...see the San Fernando Valley's Orange Line debacle, replacing even a dedicated right-of-way twice within five years of the line opening due to wear) and tend to be scalable (which is beneficial if you are already running a high frequency route.)

I do think BRT is a viable and important option to look in to for certain route capacities, and there may even be some of our proposed train routes that BRT could supply adequate capacity for, but without at least dedicated right-of-ways buses are doomed to automobile traffic timetables and troubles which is one of the reasons many people prefer public transit in the first place.