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I've become convinced that the southeastern line rail was designed purely to access park and rides and big box stores. it seems impossible to access the stations by foot or bike.
A couple weeks ago I tried to get from the south platte bike path to the englewood station only to find myself cut off by the highway. Yesterday I attempted to meet some friends who live in the Southmoor Park neighborhood. According to google maps they live just two blocks west of the southmoor light rail station. After a heated argument with my wife I finally convinced her to take the train there rather than drive. To my dismay when we got off the train, the west side of the platfrom was blocked off by a concrete wall. We were directed into a tunnel under I25 and came out on the other side. When I called my friend to get directions he apoligized and said they blocked access to the train station from the west side of the highway to prevent vagrants from loitering there. I ended up having to walk up to hamden and then back down to their house (about a twenty minute loop). Are the locals so terrified of vagrant transit riders that they actually wall off their neighborhood from the station?
Also, what's up with the ridiculous height to climb up onto these trains? Most modern railcars are much lower to the ground to allow easier handicap access (not to mention the pain of lugging my heavy bike up those stairs)
I'm all for lightrail, but these trains seem slow, poorly designed and serve places undeserving of mass transit.
I've become convinced that the southeastern line rail was designed purely to access park and rides and big box stores. it seems impossible to access the stations by foot or bike.
A couple weeks ago I tried to get from the south platte bike path to the englewood station only to find myself cut off by the highway. Yesterday I attempted to meet some friends who live in the Southmoor Park neighborhood. According to google maps they live just two blocks west of the southmoor light rail station. After a heated argument with my wife I finally convinced her to take the train there rather than drive. To my dismay when we got off the train, the west side of the platfrom was blocked off by a concrete wall. We were directed into a tunnel under I25 and came out on the other side. When I called my friend to get directions he apoligized and said they blocked access to the train station from the west side of the highway to prevent vagrants from loitering there. I ended up having to walk up to hamden and then back down to their house (about a twenty minute loop). Are the locals so terrified of vagrant transit riders that they actually wall off their neighborhood from the station?
Also, what's up with the ridiculous height to climb up onto these trains? Most modern railcars are much lower to the ground to allow easier handicap access (not to mention the pain of lugging my heavy bike up those stairs)
I'm all for lightrail, but these trains seem slow, poorly designed and serve places undeserving of mass transit.
The Englewood Station is actually on the SW line. It's one that is very easily accessible as it's just a short walk from downtown Englewood as well as most Englewood neighborhoods. It's located right next to the Englewood public library and City Hall and there are apartments, shops and restaurants just steps away. IMO it's one of the better designed stations. I agree that they need to find a way to link the City of Sheridan to this light rail station. I was surprised that it wasn't a part of the planning when they built the new Riverpoint Sheridan.
I've never taken the SE line but that does sound really strange that they would block off access to the light rail over fears of vagrants.
I've become convinced that the southeastern line rail was designed purely to access park and rides and big box stores. it seems impossible to access the stations by foot or bike.
A couple weeks ago I tried to get from the south platte bike path to the englewood station only to find myself cut off by the highway. Yesterday I attempted to meet some friends who live in the Southmoor Park neighborhood. According to google maps they live just two blocks west of the southmoor light rail station. After a heated argument with my wife I finally convinced her to take the train there rather than drive. To my dismay when we got off the train, the west side of the platfrom was blocked off by a concrete wall. We were directed into a tunnel under I25 and came out on the other side. When I called my friend to get directions he apoligized and said they blocked access to the train station from the west side of the highway to prevent vagrants from loitering there. I ended up having to walk up to hamden and then back down to their house (about a twenty minute loop). Are the locals so terrified of vagrant transit riders that they actually wall off their neighborhood from the station?
Also, what's up with the ridiculous height to climb up onto these trains? Most modern railcars are much lower to the ground to allow easier handicap access (not to mention the pain of lugging my heavy bike up those stairs)
I'm all for lightrail, but these trains seem slow, poorly designed and serve places undeserving of mass transit.
The Southmoor Station has a wall because the rail platform backs up against residential homes on Hillcrest, not because of transients. It has the platform to the west of I-25 and a tunnel under the Highway to access the platform. It was discussed when this line was planned to acquire some of these homes, demolish them and provide an access corridor/bridge to the station from the west, which would give access to the high school. That was opposed by the neighbors, as I remember.
On the Southwest line, the only way to access the Englewood Station from the west would be Hampden which would not be a good idea because of the traffic. Better access is done by Dartmouth, south on Inca.
The rail corridor was planned on the Southwest Line was planned to follow the rail corridor, so as to minimize eminent domain acquisition. Doing that did not necessarily mean the stations where in the best locations. However, the Englewood and Littleton Stations were put right in the center of town and that worked out. In addition, it allowed Englewood to redevelop Cinderella City.
The Southeast Line on which the Southmoor Station was located was planned to follow I-25 (T-Rex), again to minimize acquisition costs and to service the DTC, which is along I-25. I think that was a big mistake in the designs and the access because these stations along the DTC are difficult to get to, as are designed mostly to service 8-5 office workers; after the work day, the stations are not as heavily used.
The Southmoor Station was put on an already owned and existing popular Park n' Ride which served a wealthy and influential group of citizens. That was my take in in attending the planning meetings, as I can remember.
It appears that there were numerous meeting to even provide a foot bridge access to that Park n' Ride in the past but faced strong opposition. It would again had required removing some nice homes to the west. I think it should have been done or they should have picked a different location for the station, perhaps just north of Hamden and used Eminent Domain to acquire property.
The problem is that the whole system is being built with the idea to minimize the cost and legal problems of eminent domain.Unfortunately, that does not mean that we get the stations and the lines at the best location.
People have to realize that condemning property for some projects lessen problems in the future. I think the Bureaucrats where afraid of the public response because the public was unfortunately convinced totally that Eminent Domain is wrong; it is not in all situations.
As I said before RTD was tasked to build the rail and the municipalities are responsible for the development around the station. I think funds should have been allocated more to RTD to further develop around the stations and not only be restricted to the rail project. That would have allowed more money and faster initial development around the stations. I remember discussions of these issues, years ago, but I am not at all knowledgeable in development or planning and I just forgot what was said---we are talking over 20 years ago.
I wanted to add that the light rail access for the disabled is terrible. Now, because of my medical problems, I have to use the raised disabled platform---a big waste of money. There is some hope because the new heavy rail cars, electric and diesel, will be at ground level and will not require these stupid platform. Why did they use they trains and not some others??? It has something to do with the false believe that this light rail was the greatest and that is what everybody was sold. I know I have ridden streetcars that do not have these steps. Streetcars in real streets with real people was not considered because the inexpensive access was along the rail and highway corridor which is difficult for people to access.
Yea, I have been to every station--got off, looked around and most are just in terrible locations. I would say my favorite station is Englewood, followed by Littleton on the Southwest Line. My favorite on the Southeast Line would be Yale and Southmoor. These are my best because they are all near walkable nice neighborhoods. I would add that some stations in Downtown are in good locations.
Livecontent
Last edited by livecontent; 08-09-2009 at 05:43 PM..
I think that was a big mistake in the designs and the access because these stations along the DTC are difficult to get to, as are designed mostly to service 8-5 office workers; after the work day, the stations are not as heavily used.
The whole point of public transport projects in this day and age is to relieve workhour commutes rather than provide pleasure opportunities. I see nothing wrong with stations designed to service business rather than personal needs. They built for need in that area.
Wow...I've never seen the station but just looking at it on Google Earth I can immediately see multiple problems with this station. It's fine if it's only meant as a Park & Ride depot, but otherwise it really is designed terribly from an urban planning perspective.
Of course it just hammers home the problem with using highway ROW for trains anyway. Development along highways is built for cars and an automobile scale (large parking lots, big box stores, etc...) rather than the pedestrian scale that trains are designed for. Hopefully it works out well for the city as far as the Park & Rides go because I'm not sure I see much value in it otherwise - and I'm a big fan of urban rail and transit.
The whole point of public transport projects in this day and age is to relieve workhour commutes rather than provide pleasure opportunities. I see nothing wrong with stations designed to service business rather than personal needs. They built for need in that area.
The point of public transit is to serve all needs. It has always been the idea of public transit. Your views are a little narrow in focus. Yes, commuting times are important but not all the people have the luxury of a 8-5 M-F job.
You have workers who work during day; you have people working at different shifts, day and night and many of those jobs exist in the DTC. So, the maid and hospitality workers at the numerous hotels cannot have the same opportunity for public transit as you??? Is that what you are saying??? After all transit is only to serve the elite office worker--is that it.
You have students. You have the disabled, the elderly, the youth; all who cannot drive. You have the less fortunate who cannot afford a car;and we have mother earth who needs a little help with more environmental friendly solutions.
Public transit also involves pleasure and recreational movement of people. There is nothing wrong with stations designed for workhour commutes. What I am saying about these particular stations is that the access could have been better designed to serve residents in the area and provide better feeder buses for other than the commuting time. The area does have people living around the area. It does have venues that attract people other than the work time.
I am very familiar with the area and the problems of public transit in Denver. I have been using the system for 30 years. I think it is a good system but it has some problems. I have been to all these stations and I know that it is difficult for pedestrian access around the DTC.
The main problem is that the DTC was never built with the pedestrians in mind; it was designed for the only the automobile going to the office, the restaurants and the hotels. Now more residential units are being built in the more central area. However,there has to be better emphasis placed on people who walk, bike and take other buses. Today when we built Transit Oriented Development, we think of people too, not only cars. How many times have you used the stations in the DTC???? Oh, I see you live in Southern California--that is some commute. I know you people in California like to drive but...this is a little much.
Livecontent
Last edited by livecontent; 08-09-2009 at 06:47 PM..
From what I can tell the light rail in Denver were designed as commuter rail lines. They remind me of the LIRR - you drive to the station, and take the train to the city (work) or maybe to see a show. But there is always the drive -> park -> train component. LIRR stations, are generally not friendly to pedestrians or bicyclists.
I think what some of the posters here are really looking for is a subway, which unfortunately doesn't really exist outside of NYC.
After a heated argument with my wife I finally convinced her to take the train there rather than drive. To my dismay when we got off the train, the west side of the platfrom was blocked off by a concrete wall.
Did she say "I told you so!!!!!!!" ? I bet she did.
From what I can tell the light rail in Denver were designed as commuter rail lines. They remind me of the LIRR - you drive to the station, and take the train to the city (work) or maybe to see a show. But there is always the drive -> park -> train component. LIRR stations, are generally not friendly to pedestrians or bicyclists.
I think what some of the posters here are really looking for is a subway, which unfortunately doesn't really exist outside of NYC.
No, I not really looking for a subway---a subway, by the way, is only an underground train--not for a specific reason of transit. Of course, subways exist in dense heavily and already developed populated cities; but it is the nature of the city that makes the subway have certain specific uses--not the other way around. You cannot put a subway, underground train, in a sparsely populated area and expect to generate pleasure and frequent travel.
As far as the LIRR, yes, what you describe is true. I am an ex resident of NYC. However, that system was designed in a former time when the concept of integrating pedestrian and bicycle transit was not in the culture of the suburban areas on the Island. Today, we have different types of ideas, and with the paradigm shift we look at new Transit Oriented Development.
Livecontent
Last edited by livecontent; 08-09-2009 at 07:29 PM..
It starts as a subway downtown, but very quickly turns into a trolley through the suburbs. It seems to cover about the same distance as the SW line, at about the same speed. The newer cars are much lower to the ground, similiar to streetcars I've ridden in Europe. But they are not streetcars, they have their own right of way and are separated from traffic. The trains often run right past people's backyards and I think they view the close access as an amenity rather than a nuisance. Its too bad denver was sold on lightrail and that I25 seems to be a constant obstacle along its route. The MBTA does a pretty good job of serving both downtown and the suburbs, although it has its problems like every transit agency does.
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