Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
No, you can't. I mean, I honestly have no idea what close moderation means. Maybe you could rewrite it in English, but you can't just eat complex carbs on a keto diet, at least not a real keto diet. A lot of people like to jump on trends and say they're eating keto when they aren't at all though.
Close moderation means exactly what it says. You have to count every carb that goes into your body. Should be easy enough to understand. Atkins is a real keto diet (which I have been on now for 2 months). Phase 1 limits me to 20g of net carbs per day. PH2 = 30g, PH3 is the balancing phase where I begin increasing carb intake until I get to a level where I stop losing weight and don't gain weight. PH4 is the maintenance phase where it is completely possible to eat between 50g-100g of net carbs per day. It's a real keto diet, and it works. You just have to understand HOW it works.
You cannot sustain ketosis for a long period of time. That is why you move out of ketosis (still on the diet) when you have gotten close to your ideal weight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric
No, you have to eliminate many of those. A serving of potatoes has more than the total daily intake of carbs. You basically cannot ever have potatoes or have the in extremely small quantities, as in you can have one small bite of potato.
Same thing with brown rice. You can have six grains but a serving has more than a daily allotment of carbs. It's not something you can eat on a real keto diet. If you're on a fake keto diet, you can eat ice cream.
No..... you don't have to eliminate them forever. But you do have to moderate them. A serving of potatoes:
1/2 cup mashed - 17 grams net carbs
1/2 cup diced potato - 12 grams net carbs
1/2 cup brown rice - 29g net carbs
You CAN eat them. It depends on the serving size and how it was prepared along with taking into account where it falls in the range of your total net carb allowance for the day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric
Your body is completely capable of using the nutrients in either simple or complex carbs. It's a non-issue. The maybe extra hour to digest a complex carb isn't the issue. It's that white rice vs brown rice or white bread vs whole wheat bread a lot of the nutritional value gets removed in the processing. It has nothing to do with digestion time. It's just not there in white flour or white rice. If the point of consuming them is the quick absorption, you probably don't care that much about that though.
Glad you think that way. There aren't many nutrients in simple carbs in most cases and because they are processed more quickly there isn't as much time to pull what nutrients are there from them. There is plenty of evidence available that backs this up. You don't want quick absorption because it spikes blood sugar and causes you to crash, which leads to feeling hungry and eating again.
It's not about simple carbs being bad. It's about eating too much makes people fat. Sugary deserts especially are easy to overeat on, but then so is bacon.
"So the truly bad carbohydrates are the ones that offer little in the way of nutrition and pump a lot of simple, energy-destabilizing sugars into the body.
Examples of bad, bad carb foods are those made with refined sugar and refined flour like candy, cake, muffins and white bread -- no nutrients and no steady energy." https://www.verywell.com/good-carbs-...-carbs-2704423
"They come in two types: simple and complex. What's the difference? Simple carbs are like quick-burning fuels. They break down fast into sugar in your system. You want to eat less of this type.
Complex carbs are usually a better choice. It takes your body longer to break them down." https://www.webmd.com/diet/ss/slides...-healthy-carbs
Do you really understand carbs and a keto diet? If so, you would probably reconsider your post because it really doesn't align with what the diet stands for.
I might also add that while eating too much is bad, eating too little and eating the wrong thing is just as bad.
Close moderation means exactly what it says. You have to count every carb that goes into your body. Should be easy enough to understand. Atkins is a real keto diet (which I have been on now for 2 months). Phase 1 limits me to 20g of net carbs per day. PH2 = 30g, PH3 is the balancing phase where I begin increasing carb intake until I get to a level where I stop losing weight and don't gain weight. PH4 is the maintenance phase where it is completely possible to eat between 50g-100g of net carbs per day. It's a real keto diet, and it works. You just have to understand HOW it works.
Adkins is NOT a true Ketogenic diet . It is right on the carbs but it differs from a true keto diet in that it does not call for an increase in fat intake. Unless the Adkins diet you are doing has been modified it is not the same thing. Keto is low carb HIGH fat moderate protein. Adkins does not limit protein. Keto does not have "phases". It is the same throughout the course of the plan, otherwise when you go to 50 to 100 grams like you state you would not remain in ketosis (too many carbs). Another thing not is not usually mentioned about the keto or Adkins diets are that levels of insulin should remain low at all times. THIS one thing makes the difference in fat burning. Too much protein raises insulin levels.
Adkins is NOT a true Ketogenic diet . It is right on the carbs but it differs from a true keto diet in that it does not call for an increase in fat intake. Unless the Adkins diet you are doing has been modified it is not the same thing. Keto is low carb HIGH fat moderate protein. Adkins does not limit protein. Keto does not have "phases". It is the same throughout the course of the plan, otherwise when you go to 50 to 100 grams like you state you would not remain in ketosis (too many carbs). Another thing not is not usually mentioned about the keto or Adkins diets are that levels of insulin should remain low at all times. THIS one thing makes the difference in fat burning. Too much protein raises insulin levels.
Adkins is NOT a true Ketogenic diet . It is right on the carbs but it differs from a true keto diet in that it does not call for an increase in fat intake. Unless the Adkins diet you are doing has been modified it is not the same thing. Keto is low carb HIGH fat moderate protein. Adkins does not limit protein. Keto does not have "phases". It is the same throughout the course of the plan, otherwise when you go to 50 to 100 grams like you state you would not remain in ketosis (too many carbs). Another thing not is not usually mentioned about the keto or Adkins diets are that levels of insulin should remain low at all times. THIS one thing makes the difference in fat burning. Too much protein raises insulin levels.
"Both Atkins and Keto use this same metabolic pathway, so Atkins is definitely a ketosis diet." Within the low-carb community, a ketogenic diet is defined as eating fewer than 50 net carbs per day, with a very low-carb diet defined as 25 net carbs, or less.
Despite those claiming that you can follow all of the rules for the Atkins Diet and still "never" hit ketosis because Atkins isn't always ketogenic, Phase 2 of Atkins clearly falls within the low-carb community's definition for a ketogenic diet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gguerra
It is right on the carbs but it differs from a true keto diet in that it does not call for an increase in fat intake. Unless the Adkins diet you are doing has been modified it is not the same thing. Keto is low carb HIGH fat moderate protein. Adkins does not limit protein.
"It’s a common misconception that Atkins is a “high protein” diet when, in actual fact, there are guidelines for every phase which indicate that moderate amounts of protein foods should be eaten with each meal. "
When following Atkins, if you do overeat protein foods then you can stall the transition to ketosis; or even get knocked out of this fat burning state altogether. Don’t worry too much though as gluconeogenesis is a slow process and so you’ll not instantly stop burning fat if you eat a steak that’s too large, or you have an extra helping of bacon on your full English breakfast. However don’t eat large helpings of meat or eggs on a daily basis as this may set you back and stall weight loss.
It’s also depends on you as a person as some people are more sensitive to protein and are best advised to err on the lower end of the scale when choosing meals. Others can eat more protein and needs will increase if you’re exercising too. So start off with a reasonable amount per meal and you can always add or subtract the size of your steak or chicken breast; if weight loss stalls. Start with 115g-175g in weight of protein foods per meal, up to 225g if you’re a bigger man. This is roughly a palm sized piece of poultry, meat or fish; or 2 eggs in an omelette.
I'm amazed at the number of people who claim to understand how Atkins works yet consistently post things that are 100% untrue. A little research would go a long way.
I agree with food combining for satiety. I've tried eating just meat and veggies and I'm often hungry two hours later. I've eaten just carbs, and I'm also hungry 2-3 hours later. To go the distance, I must have a meal that contains a starch, meat, and a heaping portion of veggies. That's what I have for my dinner and I am full for hours. A three square meal plan with two snacks can work for me as well but I often don't have the time to deal with all of that at work. So I eat 5-6 times per day during the workweek, 4 times per day on the weekends.
I'm amazed at the number of people who claim to understand how Atkins works yet consistently post things that are 100% untrue. A little research would go a long way.
The second link I provided and which you quoted from is a blog post and someone's opinion and experience, not scientifically proven, my mistake, I did't actually read the whole thing. The person that posted it is actually a proponent of the Adkins diet and is stating what you are. I'm not against Atkins, I am just saying it's not the same as a Ketogenic diet.
Quote:
"Both Atkins and Keto use this same metabolic pathway, so Atkins is definitely a ketosis diet.
They may use the same metabolic pathway but there are other factors at play, mainly insulin.
From the first link I posted
Quote:
At face value, the keto diet and Atkins seem to be pretty similar, since they both focus on low carb — and that’s where people get confused. But as you now know, there are big differences in outcome from each.
The ketogenic diet is a very precise way to eat to change your metabolism and what your body uses for energy. Although it comes with the inconvenience of measuring food and tracking ketone levels, there are now supplements that drastically aid with this, and the results are invaluable for your health and wellbeing.
While the Atkins diet is very easy to follow, it has some true health risks and may not bring the same drastic benefits one can expect from following the more stringent guidelines of the ketogenic diet.
So, when considering the argument of ketosis versus Atkins, it’s a pretty clear choice that ketosis offers much better longer term health benefits once you get used to implementing it in your life.
Keto is the same as the the induction phase of Atkins but with more fat and less protein. There are NO "phases" in Keto. It stays the same forever. THAT IS THE MAIN DIFFERENCE whether you want to accept it or not. I tend to go with the consensus. The keto diet has been around since the 20's and has become very popular these days. The Atkins diet is not as popular as it was back in the 90's. They are similar but not the same. The link you posted is from Atkins, not necessarily unbiased, lol.
Quote:
COMPARING ATKINS TO KETO
The Atkins Diet differs from the keto diet in that Atkins has an “introductory” phase where the dieter follows very similar nutrient ratios on the ketogenic diet. During this introductory phase on Atkins, carb intake is set at roughly 15-30 grams per day maximum, which helps to promote fat burning within the body instead of using glycogen for energy.
This is what ultimately leads to the state of ketosis achieved when following the ketogenic diet. The Atkins diet differs in that the dieter is actually able to introduce more carbohydrates (albeit still a very limited quantity) once this initial introduction phase has come to an end.
The initial results for those on Atkins were promising for a low carbohydrate diet because of lowering blood sugar, but they weren’t getting all of the benefits of the ketogenic diet. Plus, when too much (an unlimited amount) of protein is consumed, your body can convert it to carbohydrate to be used for energy, which can stall long-term progress and not lead to any of the benefits that you get out of using ketone bodies for energy on the keto diet.
The Atkins Diet also fell out of popularity after reports that many people were getting sick, gaining weight over the long term, or increasing their blood lipid profile.
There was a heavy encouragement on the Atkins Diet that you could eat whatever you wanted and in whatever amount as long as it wasn’t carbohydrates. This lead to people overeating massive amounts of low-quality food, which lead to health problems.
Weight loss is an individual thing. You do what works for you. Simply put, I don't want to give up carbs. It's not sustainable or desirable to me. I like eating a grain based diet and if I've lost a bunch of weight while eating the way that I like to eat, then why would I change? I don't need to remove entire food groups in order to achieve results. I can eat rice, potatoes, pasta, beans...hell even the evil simple carbs... and still reach my goal. I practice eating in moderation, that's it.
My grandfather was overweight, but he had an 'everything in moderation' attitude (including stress....and he had plenty of money), and he walked every day and consumed nutritious foods....beets, prune juice, eggs, lean meats, whole grain no sugar added cereal, lots of other fruits and vegetables, etc. until he was 85. When he was 85, my grandmother got sick and no longer recognized any of us. This was very hard on him (they met in college, and had been together for 65 years at that point), and he eventually started pigging out on sweets. He then developed Diabetes, but no other significant health issues, and still had 'all of his marbles' when he died a few months short of his 90th birthday.
Close moderation means exactly what it says. You have to count every carb that goes into your body. Should be easy enough to understand. Atkins is a real keto diet (which I have been on now for 2 months). Phase 1 limits me to 20g of net carbs per day. PH2 = 30g, PH3 is the balancing phase where I begin increasing carb intake until I get to a level where I stop losing weight and don't gain weight. PH4 is the maintenance phase where it is completely possible to eat between 50g-100g of net carbs per day. It's a real keto diet, and it works. You just have to understand HOW it works.
You cannot sustain ketosis for a long period of time. That is why you move out of ketosis (still on the diet) when you have gotten close to your ideal weight.
Atkins induction often winds up being a keto diet. Beyond induction, however, there are no limits on carbohydrates. Depending on activity level and diet it may or may not be. You can stay on a keto diet indefinitely. The big concern is ketoacidosis where there's too much buildup for ketones. In otherwise healthy people that almost never occurs outside of starvation or alcoholism (if that would be considered healthy). There's enough gluconeogenesis from protein in a normal very low carb diet that ketoacidosis is just not an issue in most cases. Most people won't even be in ketosis on a low ~50 gram/day carb intake anyway. They're not active enough.
Quote:
No..... you don't have to eliminate them forever. But you do have to moderate them. A serving of potatoes:
1/2 cup mashed - 17 grams net carbs
1/2 cup diced potato - 12 grams net carbs
1/2 cup brown rice - 29g net carbs
A serving of potatoes has 31 grams of carbs. For non-endurance athletes, most people need to keep carbs in the 20-50 gram range to stay in ketosis. For a more sedentary person, it's more at the 20-30 range. If you're not in ketosis, you're not eating a keto diet. It's simple to check at home via blood testing -- or you can just check by breathing on people. If you have bad breath (acetone smell), you're definitely in ketosis. The more active you are the more carbs you can eat and stay in ketosis. There's a finite amount of glucose you can synthesize from non-carbohydrate sources. If your glycogen demands exceed how much glycogen your body can synthesize from carb and non-carb sources, you get ketosis. A healthy person can stay in ketosis indefinitely. It's only a problem if you build up too many ketones in the blood which changes the pH. Since your bodily functions require a narrow range of pH to function properly, that's obviously bad. It generally only occurs in extreme cases, however. Someone eating 20 grams of carbs and sufficient protein that isn't running a marathon every few days is unlikely to have an issue unless they're also a diabetic.
Quote:
You CAN eat them. It depends on the serving size and how it was prepared along with taking into account where it falls in the range of your total net carb allowance for the day.
Absolutely. In minute quantities. If you have to eat under 30 grams of carbs to eat keto and a serving (NLEA) exceeds 30 grams of carbs, you cannot eating a serving of potatoes. If you eat half a serving, then you can eat 15 grams of carbs. It's pretty tough to only eat 15 grams of carbs though.
Quote:
Glad you think that way. There aren't many nutrients in simple carbs in most cases and because they are processed more quickly there isn't as much time to pull what nutrients are there from them. There is plenty of evidence available that backs this up. You don't want quick absorption because it spikes blood sugar and causes you to crash, which leads to feeling hungry and eating again.
Baloney. Simple carbs are fine nutrient sources. There's no issue extracting the nutrients of a banana just because it is digested quickly. I absolutely want the quick absorption and blood sugar spikes. Do I just indiscriminately eat four bananas whenever I feel like it? No. On the other hand I do frequently eat four bananas when I do want the quick absorption and blood sugar spike that simple carbohydrates provide. If I get bored of bananas there's always another of my favorites -- the English muffin, ham, and jam sandwich. Yum.
Quote:
"So the truly bad carbohydrates are the ones that offer little in the way of nutrition and pump a lot of simple, energy-destabilizing sugars into the body.
Examples of bad, bad carb foods are those made with refined sugar and refined flour like candy, cake, muffins and white bread -- no nutrients and no steady energy." https://www.verywell.com/good-carbs-...-carbs-2704423
Weird. The so-called "bad" properties is THE reason I consume them. I say they're excellent, excellent carbs. Do I eat them every day? No. When I want those so-called "bad" effects, however, absolutely.
Quote:
Do you really understand carbs and a keto diet? If so, you would probably reconsider your post because it really doesn't align with what the diet stands for.
I might also add that while eating too much is bad, eating too little and eating the wrong thing is just as bad.
Oh, I understand it. That's the problem. Depending on activity level, keto requires not only very low carb intake but in many cases protein limits as well particularly for the relatively inactive. I'm too much of a fan of the vegetable. If you've only got 30 grams of carbs you can eat at your activity level, eating potatoes instead of vegetables is the wrong thing. I mean, I wouldn't eat keto anyway but if I were I wouldn't blow half my carb allotment for the day eating half a serving of potatoes.
The second link I provided and which you quoted from is a blog post and someone's opinion and experience, not scientifically proven, my mistake, I did't actually read the whole thing. The person that posted it is actually a proponent of the Adkins diet and is stating what you are. I'm not against Atkins, I am just saying it's not the same as a Ketogenic diet.
They may use the same metabolic pathway but there are other factors at play, mainly insulin.
From the first link I posted
Keto is the same as the the induction phase of Atkins but with more fat and less protein. There are NO "phases" in Keto. It stays the same forever. THAT IS THE MAIN DIFFERENCE whether you want to accept it or not. I tend to go with the consensus. The keto diet has been around since the 20's and has become very popular these days. The Atkins diet is not as popular as it was back in the 90's. They are similar but not the same. The link you posted is from Atkins, not necessarily unbiased, lol.
You should do some in depth research on Atkins. Atkins limits protein and recommends a higher fat content as well. This is how any diet that focuses on ketosis works.
I agree that the latter phases of Atkins pushes you out of ketosis, and that is by design. Remaining in a permanent state of ketosis isn't healthy and isn't realistically sustainable long term. There are nutrients that you do not get enough of while in ketosis, and as such those vitamins and such have to be introduced by some other means.
I didn't say a keto-diet and Atkins were identical. I said they are both considered a keto-diet. That is easily proven. You mention the one article being someone's opinion, but that's no different than you going "with the concensus" as to what a keto-diet is.
Anyhow, getting back to the topic at hand.... there are "good" carbs and "bad" carbs in terms of how your body processes them and the benefit they provide. People tend to focus on portion control and that (in my opinion) is not the only thing that needs to be focused on. One serving of a twinkie isn't going to give you the same benefits as one serving of fish, or a vegetable, etc.... We have an issue with overeating and overeating the wrong thing. That's why folks are obese. People get fat, and then don't have the energy to exercise because they are on the constant sugar rollercoaster. Once you begin losing weight and your sugar stabilizes, energy comes with it.
It makes sense to focus on the foods that provide stable fuel for the body (some carbs are included in those foods). Exercise is great, but at the end of the day just exercising isn't going to make anyone completely healthy either. It takes a balance of exercise with the proper diet. For me, that is a low carb diet. I no longer have to focus on hunger (because I rarely ever am), eating the wrong things, etc...
I also hear people say that they don't want to be limited to what they can eat. We regulate every other part of our lives, except for what we put into our bodies. I rarely find anyone who has a good reason not to eat healthy other than at the base of things, they just don't want to put in the effort.
You should do some in depth research on Atkins. Atkins limits protein and recommends a higher fat content as well. This is how any diet that focuses on ketosis works.
I agree that the latter phases of Atkins pushes you out of ketosis, and that is by design. Remaining in a permanent state of ketosis isn't healthy and isn't realistically sustainable long term. There are nutrients that you do not get enough of while in ketosis, and as such those vitamins and such have to be introduced by some other means.
I didn't say a keto-diet and Atkins were identical. I said they are both considered a keto-diet. That is easily proven. You mention the one article being someone's opinion, but that's no different than you going "with the concensus" as to what a keto-diet is.
Anyhow, getting back to the topic at hand.... there are "good" carbs and "bad" carbs in terms of how your body processes them and the benefit they provide. People tend to focus on portion control and that (in my opinion) is not the only thing that needs to be focused on. One serving of a twinkie isn't going to give you the same benefits as one serving of fish, or a vegetable, etc.... We have an issue with overeating and overeating the wrong thing. That's why folks are obese. People get fat, and then don't have the energy to exercise because they are on the constant sugar rollercoaster. Once you begin losing weight and your sugar stabilizes, energy comes with it.
It makes sense to focus on the foods that provide stable fuel for the body (some carbs are included in those foods). Exercise is great, but at the end of the day just exercising isn't going to make anyone completely healthy either. It takes a balance of exercise with the proper diet. For me, that is a low carb diet. I no longer have to focus on hunger (because I rarely ever am), eating the wrong things, etc...
I also hear people say that they don't want to be limited to what they can eat. We regulate every other part of our lives, except for what we put into our bodies. I rarely find anyone who has a good reason not to eat healthy other than at the base of things, they just don't want to put in the effort.
Sorry but I don't have to restrict carbs to be healthy or lose weight. That works for you and that's great. That's your version of a proper diet but it doesnt have to be for everybody. My issue is when people on low carb diets set themselves up as arbiters of what constitutes a healthy diet. The best diet is the one that you can stick to for life. Period. For me I refuse to limit what I can eat. It's all about portion control and calorie management and staying active and if I want to eat a Twinkie I'll eat that twinkie
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
