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Can someone tell me why the alpha roll is not a recommended training technique? Does it encourage aggression? Is it not safe to do? I was reading the posts about puppies who bite often and bite hard. A lot of useful advice, but I'm curious about what is wrong with the alpha roll. Our pup is about 8 months now. He has had some puppy classes, but I elected to set up private training sessions since the other dogs are a distraction. He does like other dogs and enjoys playing a lot. A few of the dogs in his class had MAJOR issues...one was hoarded, kept a crate for months and abandoned. I found it was not the magic answer I'd hoped for. He does get very "mouthy," biteswhen overly excited. He hasn't broken skin, but I don't like this trait. We tried the alpha roll when he was very excited and pulling/biting our shirt sleeves. He did not respond to this, nor does he seem to respond to any of my attempts to stop his play biting or excitable biting. He gets better and bites less, then he'll start again if he gets excited. I hope this is just the puppy thing. He can be so sweet and affectionate at times. I think maybe we just need to wait this behavior out. Any success stories out there? I was comforted to hear of so many other puppies who do the very same thing. I thought we adopted a "bad" puppy, but when he wags that tail and gives puppy kisses, when he's so happy to see us...well it just makes it all worthwhile.
Redirecting is a far better tactic, then praising the dog when he does what you want...it's the difference between teaching desired behavior and punishing for bad behavior. Kind of like hitting a child to punish them for hitting...well, perhaps the analogy loses something. But from all I've read (much on dogs/dog training), it basically teaches the dog that *your* behavior is unpredictable and aggressive. Even the Monks of New Skeet retracted their thinking and spoke out against it.
One book I highly recommend is Brian Kilcommons, "Good Dog, Great Owner." Not only is it full of great advice and training tips, but it has anecodotes throughout that make for interesting reading. And really, there's no such thing as a "bad" puppy.
I always thought that the Alpha Roll was stupid.. All it really teaches is fear & the you are bigger than me...well duh most people ARE bigger than dogs. When your dog nips him say a firm NO then give him something he can chew on....
we use a alpha roll in play so it has no value.
....why do u need to prove u are alpha ...your taller then the dog, you feed him and are the keeper of good things ....no need to break him w/ a roll.
...sometimes I alpha roll my husband HEHEHE! just joking ...I don't need too, he knows Im the boss!
When puppy play bites you either need to teach him that he needs to calm down ....no more play or pull back and when he gets quiet pet him to teach him thats good calm behavior. like Katie said ..trade your chew hand for a chew toy.
....puppies bite ....babies bite ...just gotta teach them kisses are better.
IN FACT if Cody gets to excited we ask for a down and kisses! ....maybe if pup knows a behavior well ask for that when he gets to excited!
To answer your question: Back in the 50's behaviorists observing wild wolf packs saw dominant and submissive ritualistic displays by the wolves and assumed that the apha wolf was rolling the subordinate wolf. This was not proven to be true in subsequent, longer term, studies. In fact, the submissive wolf presents itself to the alpha wolf and then voluntarily rolls over as a sign of their acceptance of their lower pack ranking. Wolves generally roll another animal to expose the tender belly in order to kill it, not to assert dominance. According to Dr. Frank Beach, alphas seldom have to enforce their dominance. Dogs in the middle of the heirarchy will fight though, so using force on your dog, such as the alpha roll, doesn't establish you as the leader but rather as a subordinate.
Older wolves and dogs allow their puppies to bite them and each other. When the puppy gets to about 4 or 5 months old and it bites an adult, the adult will discipline the pup appropriately. Not forcefully. Littermates willl do the same. That's how puppies learn bite inhibition, and that's how the mouthy behavior gets extinguished in canine packs.
When dogs are raised by humans, they often don't learn proper bite inhibition. You will have to teach your pup. There are lots of resources out there, just Google. But please, don't use force or punishment. Aggression breeds aggression.
You really need to redirect your pup's mouth onto something it is ok to bite.
For instance, I had a Rottweiler pup at the time my daughter was about 4 and my son about 1 y.o. The pup, of course, wanted to nip at my daughter when she would run. THis is how I redirected that impulse:
You must make a sharp, sudden noise to distract the pup, who will stop for a second to see what that was, then immediately offer the pup a toy that they can bite and carry around when they are excited. As soon as they grab it, praise profusely. If they drop it, then pick it up, wave it around, anything to get them to focus on it and want it. Every time they get their mouth on the object that they CAN bite, praise a lot. Every time their mouth contacts something it shouldn't (like your skin!) make the loud, startling noise to scold and interrupt them, then offer the toy. Then tell them how good they are. BE dramatic, dogs respond to that well.
You can also have someone watching with a spray bottle of water (even vinegar-water mix for really hard cases) and spray right when they bite you, then offer the toy. If you are consistent, and persistent, they learn really quick that when they hit that level of excitement that causes them to bite something, they look for their toy and pick it up to satisfy that natural urge to bite.
I have a German Shepherd who I taught this to so that he could play with other dogs. As a large puppy, he played, and still does at 8 y.o., too, too rough with other dogs. I taught him to go pick up a stick or anything else available, but appropriate, when he got so excited. Then he could still run around and be boisterous, but with his mouth occupied, he didn't bite the other dogs! The tennis ball is the best, as he won't drop it unless under serious attack, (of course I do not allow that situation) but he will carry that tennis ball even when very excited, so he won't overwhelm new dogs he meets with his overbearing greeting!
It does take some close attention and repetition, but it works, and they remember it well.
To answer your question: Back in the 50's behaviorists observing wild wolf packs saw dominant and submissive ritualistic displays by the wolves and assumed that the apha wolf was rolling the subordinate wolf. This was not proven to be true in subsequent, longer term, studies. In fact, the submissive wolf presents itself to the alpha wolf and then voluntarily rolls over as a sign of their acceptance of their lower pack ranking. Wolves generally roll another animal to expose the tender belly in order to kill it, not to assert dominance. According to Dr. Frank Beach, alphas seldom have to enforce their dominance. Dogs in the middle of the heirarchy will fight though, so using force on your dog, such as the alpha roll, doesn't establish you as the leader but rather as a subordinate.
Older wolves and dogs allow their puppies to bite them and each other. When the puppy gets to about 4 or 5 months old and it bites an adult, the adult will discipline the pup appropriately. Not forcefully. Littermates willl do the same. That's how puppies learn bite inhibition, and that's how the mouthy behavior gets extinguished in canine packs.
When dogs are raised by humans, they often don't learn proper bite inhibition. You will have to teach your pup. There are lots of resources out there, just Google. But please, don't use force or punishment. Aggression breeds aggression.
Another thing once you make your dog fear you & you make him into a fear bitter OR 2 his submissively pees all over you & the furniture & floor ...then what!!
According to Dr. Frank Beach, alphas seldom have to enforce their dominance. Dogs in the middle of the heirarchy will fight though, so using force on your dog, such as the alpha roll, doesn't establish you as the leader but rather as a subordinate.
That makes so much sense...thanks for the link too, Leorah!
If a dog bites my hand in play, I roll his lip over his teeth so that he ends up biting himself also.
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