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There's a great article about dominance-based training here: http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%20statement.pdf (broken link)
Negative reinforcement, done properly, does work, but it is not right for every dog. Much of the controversy about Cesar Millan's techniques may be related to the different constituencies of dog owners.
People who want a lapdog or a companion animal often have different behavioral expectations of their dogs than people who own working or sporting dogs such as 'coon dogs, gun dogs, or dogs that compete in Schutzhund. The different expectations and the differing personalities of the breeds involved may require different training techniques.
I do believe that habituation and incremental desensitization are much more humane than forcing a dog to endure a feared stimulus until the dog shuts down from stress. Despite the differences in canine and human mental processes and psychology, IMO, something that is considered torture when applied to humans cannot be considered a benign training technique when applied to an intelligent but non-human mammal.
Seem more like reasons to disagree, not to dislike.
We watch a lot of Cesar, not because we necessarily think he is brilliant with his techniques, etc, but because there are few dog shows on and we like to read and view different things to try to understand our own pack better.
While he may have some techniques that people feel are 'mean' or whatever, I think that we can take some of what he says and does without taking it all. Everyone has something to contribute and he has undeniably done some amazing things with some dogs.
I definitely agree with the pack mentality, the exercise (though I wonder if it just wears them out so they are less inclined to get into trouble), and the alpha role.
The people I've known for many years that are very heavily involved in showing, working, and breeding rotties don't like him because they say his 'techniques' that he uses are actually common sense. However, the way I see it, not every single person is professionally involved with dogs, and if you aren't and haven't been around them, it can't very well be common sense, now can it?
I spent my life around dogs. I've used his methods from before he even was known. And to me, yes, it was common sense. But it was only common because I've always had multiple dogs and I was so interested in them that I spent many long hours on a regular basis watching them and how they interact with one another. Had I not done that, no, it wouldn't have been common sense.
ETA: There are plenty of other methods I also use. NILIF is one that was brought up to me by other rottie people.
I think his techniques might work better with dominant dogs, the whole alpha thing.
For shy/abused/fearful dogs, I suspect different methods and ways. Bu then, showing patience and quiet and not moving towards the dog don't exactly make good TV.
Stupidly, when I first adopted a dog who bared his teeth at me, I stupidly went to dominate him. Of course, he bit me.
Five years later, he still bares his teeth under certain circumstances. I don't know why. I just avoid those circumstances.
Gotta pay attention to those disclaimers!
The reason a lot of pet owners have these dogs with issues is that the pets have had nothing but POSITIVE reinforcement of whatever behavior they are exhibiting. Letting a pet be fearful and dangerous is NOT healthy and if 'flooding' that pet to finally help it get over a behavior (that the sweet ole owner has been unknowingly positively reinforcing) is going to eliminate it, then what is more cruel.....letting the dog go through constant extreme fear forever? That's whack. Dogs aren't people, they don't lie in a psychiatrist's office and get their anxieties off their chests. And dogs don't sit around sobbing because their pack leader told them that they aren't allowed to go ballistic when the mail drops through the door, drag people down the road, destroy fencing trying to rip up the neighbor's dog or bite the pack leader's kids.
I wish people would quit bashing Cesar. If you like a training method, share it. He does use positive reinforcement, but he mainly uses methods that incorporate the dog's natural communication process. How many people raved on and on about the Horse Whisperer? Did you see how he kept scaring the horse off at the beginning of the training session? Natural communication the way a horse completely understands and accepts.
I have seen numerous episodes where he was extremely patient and positive. One is particular where this lady rescued a dog (Banjo) from a lab and the dog had been in her home for years but would never interact and was terrified. The owner had been nothing but positive for FOUR YEARS and was dumbfounded as to how this hadn't helped the dog yet. Cesar was very gentle, but the dog did have to face life with these nice people in order to overcome the fears, not just hiding and shaking his whole life in a crate where he felt most comfortable. Sometimes you do have to 'flood' a pet to help them get to a healthier place mentally. Now Banjo is enjoying life as he never was able to let himself before, no matter how many treats the owner tried to give him. Now he can enjoy the human touch. Are you going to tell me that's cruel?? Anxiety is cruel.
Enjoy what training method you want. But if you haven't worked in a vet hospital, boarding kennel or dog training facility and experienced working with thousands and thousands of dogs of many different temperaments you just don't know -- that ONE method isn't it. Many methods. Many.
And while he may have to do an alpha roll (OH, the horrors....rolling a dog on it's side) it seems that is pretty much reserved for a pretty severe AGGRESSION problem and when the dog is trying to attack. And after that it is a snap of the fingers and a touch or look or 'ah-ah' and that is all it takes to prevent another outburst of violence. It's not as if he is rolling poor little pomeranians 24-7 and whipping the crap out of them. It was on tremendously powerful red-zone agrressive dogs that the OWNERS let become that way by unknowingly reinforcing the behaviors. They could've just prevented it all along but they didn't. At least he is trying to tell people to quit making their dogs into little people, it is causing them to be unbalanced and not quite as happy as they could be. Dogs are fine with a pack leader. They don't sit around and feel sorry for themselves when they aren't the leader. They are perfectly fine with it. Speak dog, not people.
Some folks won't like him simply because he's successful and famous. Others may not like him because they are in the "pet therapy" industry and they are milking owners out of their finances by using questionable methods of training. Dog pyschologists or whatever they fancy themselves, are scams. Find a good trainer who treats the dog like a DOG, not a person, and you will see better results than people like my cousin who have pet therapists and put their dogs on prozac.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grannynancy
Having worked with search and rescue dogs for a number of years now, I see two basic kinds of trainers. The "naturals" and the "educated" ones. The former really do seem to "get it" more than the latter and are, in my opinion, better dog trainers. I am more of the latter who would give my eye teeth to be more of a natural dog trainer.
The difference, to me, is the natural dog trainer has a knack with reading canine and human body language that go right over the heads of most of us. The flick of an ear, the curl at the tip of the tail, etc. etc.. They really "read" the dog and are in the moment with the dog.
Humans have had working relationships with animals for centuries and in these days of behaviorists everywhere, the human-dog relationship is more broken than ever. I have been told so many times "you are overthinking it, just watch the dog"
"Natural Trainer" strikes a chord. There is a trainer and hunting guide in East Texas that I've had some association with who very precisely fits that description. He and the dogs just "connect" on a level that is completely beyond me. I think I know exactly what you mean when you say he is "in the moment with the dog". You can see it on his face when it happens. He has an uncanny ability to just plain-old "know what to do" to get through to the dogs. Amazing. He's the same way with horses and he could teach anyone a thing or two about cows as well. It's a rare gift he has.
I have raised three St Bernards. One of the things that St Bernards figure out very early in their lives is that because of their size they don't have to do anything they don't want do to because they are so big you cannot force them.
I instinctively always made myself the alpha dog in order to make them submit to me because I knew I couldn't match them physically. I praised every minute of good behavior and when they mis-behaved I turned my back and ignored them. They hated that and would always come to me to make things right as long as I had the patience to wait. However, every once in a while they would get my goat and make me so mad I would yell at them. Their response was to turn their back on me and pretend not to hear me. LOL It was like looking in a mirror. They gave as good as they got.
The most important thing I learned from them was that you have to establish a real loving relationship with them that you both don't want to loose under any circumstances. Once you do that, whenever you let them know that you are not happy with their behavior, they will always come to you to apologize in their own way and make up. However, the flip side of the coin is that if you loose your cool, you have to be willing to say you are sorry and reassure them that they are loved.
Animals are not stupid. As they pass the years with you, they learn to understand you more than you think.
I have raised three St Bernards. One of the things that St Bernards figure out very early in their lives is that because of their size they don't have to do anything they don't want do to because they are so big you cannot force them.
I instinctively always made myself the alpha dog in order to make them submit to me because I knew I couldn't match them physically. I praised every minute of good behavior and when they mis-behaved I turned my back and ignored them. They hated that and would always come to me to make things right as long as I had the patience to wait. However, every once in a while they would get my goat and make me so mad I would yell at them. Their response was to turn their back on me and pretend not to hear me. LOL It was like looking in a mirror. They gave as good as they got.
The most important thing I learned from them was that you have to establish a real loving relationship with them that you both don't want to loose under any circumstances. Once you do that, whenever you let them know that you are not happy with their behavior, they will always come to you to apologize in their own way and make up. However, the flip side of the coin is that if you loose your cool, you have to be willing to say you are sorry and reassure them that they are loved.
Animals are not stupid. As they pass the years with you, they learn to understand you more than you think.
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that pet to finally help it get over a behavior (that the sweet ole owner has been unknowingly positively reinforcing) is going to eliminate it, then what is more cruel.....letting the dog go through constant extreme fear forever? That's whack. Dogs aren't people, they don't lie in a psychiatrist's office and get their anxieties off their chests. And dogs don't sit around sobbing because their pack leader told them that they aren't allowed to go ballistic when the mail drops through the door, drag people down the road, destroy fencing trying to rip up the neighbor's dog or bite the pack leader's kids. 
a pet to help them get to a healthier place mentally. Now Banjo is enjoying life as he never was able to let himself before, no matter how many treats the owner tried to give him. Now he can enjoy the human touch. Are you going to tell me that's cruel?? Anxiety is cruel. 
