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When searching for that life companion, don't buy the part, meet the pup, your heart will know. In my years I've found the papers are only as good as the breeder, because everything else can be manipulated. You would be hard pressed to make a good breeder bad as you can't make a poor one truthful. It's a contact, look me in the eye deal. So for me I search for a breeder whose "handshake matters". For me, I watch their responses to other inquiries and how they speak of their pets. Great breeders do not have to look at their papers to tell you the pups history. They know it in their hearts. They can answer your questions with truths and not empty words.
When searching for that life companion, don't buy the part (sic "paper?"), meet the pup, your heart will know. . . .
I'm with viralmd on the AKC / papered question. Go visit the pups. Watch and deal with the sire and dam. If you can't meet the sire because he won't let you get close to him, well, take that as a sign of what his progeny will be like.
I grew up in an AKC family - we bred and showed terriers. Today, some 40 years later, I am completely disenchanted with what AKC has done for dogs. AFAIC, what they have accomplished is mostly negative. I don't know a thing about APRI, but I am willing to take other's word (here) for what they are. Or are not.
I say worry more about meeting the pup's parents, and the breeders. But mostly the dogs.
While the AKC just registers pedigrees and keeps track of show points, all reputable breeders register through the AKC (if it is an AKC recognized breed ). That is because reputable breeders health test and performance test. They are also closely tied to other breeders of their breed who keep health records and pedigree information that is vital to producing healthy quality puppies.
Dog show people have a grapevine like you wouldn't believe and AKC breeders will not cooperate with any breeder who only registers with one of the sloppy pet registries.
Can you find an AKC registered dog that isn't much quality? Yes. Can you buy a top quality dog, carefully bred for health and temperament that is not from an AKC breeder? Extremely unlikely.
Last edited by oregonwoodsmoke; 01-22-2018 at 02:00 PM..
When buying a purebred puppy, invest 5 minutes online and find out what health testing is recomended for that breed. There are organizations that record the results of those tests and issue certificates and registration numbers. Testing has to be done by approved veterinarians.
No reputable breeder would ever produce a litter where both parents did not have those health certificates. So ask for them. You will very likely see health registration numbers under the names of every dog printed on the pedigree and you should be shown a pedigree for the pup that is at least 6 generations. And if you wish, you can trace the pedigree back for many more generations. My deerhound's pedigree was 26 pages long and traced back to the 1600's (with photos or paintings available for almost every dog in the pedigree).
You might not be able to trace that far, but you can trace back a long way. If there are lots of titles in the pedigree then the breeders for many generations behind your dog were careful to produce quality dogs, performance titles for temperament and ability to perform a job and show titles for beauty.
Oregon, both your posts are good, but you also make a point I disagree with. So, I color coded to keep it simple. Blue where I absolutely agree (), and red where I think there is more to the story, and it should be told.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oregonwoodsmoke
While the AKC just registers pedigrees and keeps track of show points, all reputable breeders register through the AKC (if it is an AKC recognized breed ). That is because reputable breeders health test and performance test. They are also closely tied to other breeders of their breed who keep health records and pedigree information that is vital to producing healthy quality puppies.
Dog show people have a grapevine like you wouldn't believe and most (edit, H)AKC breeders will not cooperate with any breeder who only registers with one of the sloppy pet registries. (Back when I was a kid, there were sloppy AKC breeders who got cooperation in spite of abysmal quality. I can't imagine that would change. H. )
Can you find an AKC registered dog that isn't much quality? Yes. Can you buy a top quality dog, carefully bred for health and temperament that is not from an AKC breeder? Extremely unlikely.
That last is a good point - for AKC breeds. OTOH, you can buy a very healthy village dog who's never been registered anything. The rescue scene around where I am is so oversold that they import village dogs from the Caribbean. I've even seen efforts to "rescue" village dogs from Ukraine. And there are breeds who are so recently AKC that you can find perfectly good dogs who are not AKC papered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oregonwoodsmoke
When buying a purebred puppy, invest 5 minutes online and find out what health testing is recomended for that breed. There are organizations that record the results of those tests and issue certificates and registration numbers. Testing has to be done by approved veterinarians.
No reputable breeder would ever produce a litter where both parents did not have those health certificates. So ask for them. You will very likely see health registration numbers under the names of every dog printed on the pedigree and you should be shown a pedigree for the pup that is at least 6 generations. And if you wish, you can trace the pedigree back for many more generations. My deerhound's pedigree was 26 pages long and traced back to the 1600's (with photos or paintings available for almost every dog in the pedigree).
You might not be able to trace that far, but you can trace back a long way. If there are lots of titles in the pedigree then the breeders for many generations behind your dog were careful to produce quality dogs, performance titles for temperament and ability to perform a job and show titles for beauty.
This last point goes to my big objection to AKC breeds, and closed stud books. AKC breeds are bred for SHOW conformation (looks). That is the definition of "quality" in the AKC. Temperament will come first for some breeders, and second for others. Breeding for function is almost unknown. Individual health is always a matter of concern, but what is accepted as healthy is not always optimal. And concern for breed health is given lip service only, as show conformation comes first. This is why German Shepherds have gone, in my lifetime, from being known as an outstandingly healthy and vital breed, to being one of the worst examples of the bad effects of breeding for AKC standards. Hip problems are highly prevalent and other health issues have manifested for the GS breed.
It is easy enough to go on the internet today, and find other breed examples of dog breeds who were much healthier a hundred years ago than they are today. The changes have been visible, and they have been bad. The brachycephalic (flat-faced) breeds are a complete group that has suffered because of AKC show standards. That group includes boxers pugs and bulldogs. There are two major problems with AKC breeds and standards. First is breeding for show conformation (looks). Second is closed stud books (this philosophy means that every generation of dogs is almost guaranteed to be more and more inbred, and consequently to have more and more health issues).
But having said all that, I also have to say I've drifted OT, as I've gone on about reasons I will probably avoid ever having an AKC breed dog in the future. And I'm supposed to be talking about AKC vs APRI, and you have made good points there. While I don't really know about the UKC, I do know the breed I currently have is a UKC breed, and not AKC. As I understand it, the UKC was formed back in the early 20th century, as an alternative to the AKC, with exactly the concerns I have mentioned here.
On the other hand, I went to the APRI website, and they only look like somebody trying to cash in on the pet dog business, by offering cheap "registration". Which pretty much makes them look like how they have been described in posts on this thread - a cheap and low-class version of the AKC.
AFAIC, next time I go looking for a dog, meeting the parents and watching them work will come first, unless I do a rescue again. Papers will come after that in priority, and either AKC or APRI will be a black mark against that dog in my book.
Hi
I have a question concerning a dog registered with the AKC or APRI. I have always had an AKC registered dog when I had a pedigreed dog...now as Im looking for a new puppy Im finding ALOT of APR/APRI registered purebred dogs. I question the breeders and I get different answers as to why they are not AKC....from not agreeing with the "politics" of the AKC, to not wanting to do all the paperwork/cost. I am planning on going to a dog show to speak to more breeders, but I know what theyre answers will be also. SO, I was just wondering if anyone here has any info....I have read in fo from about 5 years ago and would like some up to date opinions. I want to be sure that my puppy is a pedigree/full bred.....due to the fact that I have an older dog and young children and want certain charecteristics....otherwise I would go to a shelter.
The major advantage that a purebred (if you are speaking to a dog exhibitor/breeder at a dog show; it is better to use the term purebred, not "full bred") dog has over random-bred or the "doodle" mixes is Predictability - a range of predictable behavioral and physical characteristics that is tighter than the range for random-bred dogs. (i.e. a West Highland White Terrier a.k.a. Westie will not be as tall as a Fox Terrier and have a different coat in color and texture; a Newfoundland might be more gentle and laid-back than a Border Collie as well as quite a bit larger and prone to slobbering)
If you go to a dog show (which is a very good idea), I wouldn't ask the dog owner/handlers there if the dogs are registered with APRI, since you might get either blank looks or raised eyebrows. You can say that you haven't owned a purebred in several years; you've noticed some unusual new registries, are their dogs registered only with the AKC? (If you're at an AKC conformation show, the answer is likely to be yes, though some might also be registered with the UKC, which is a reputable registry and has been around for awhile)
I am suspicious of most registries other than AKC, UKC, and reputable registries outside of the USA, such as CKC (Canadian Kennel Club, not to be confused with the Continental Kennel Club, which is another one you should avoid, or the British Kennel Club, or the FCI, etc.). The AKC is far from perfect, but it does have rules, puts health testing proof (such as OFA) on pedigrees, has an active health foundation, and other things as other posters have noted.
Many responsible breeders who register their breeding dogs and the litters with the AKC will encourage or even require you to register a pup that you buy from them with the AKC as well, even if it is not a future show dog. Why? Because it is not 'just a pet' to them, it is a valued result of their breeding program, and they want to see proof of the dog's existence in AKC records.
Many responsible breeders (AKC-affiliated in that they use AKC-registered dogs and show them at AKC shows) will require you to sign contracts, to avoid misunderstandings, with certain guarantees and stipulations, such as if you cannot keep the dog at any time in the dog's life, the dog must be returned to the breeder. That is one sign of a good breeder. (another is that they will tell you about the advantages and disadvantages of the breed; and still another is that before they will agree to sell you a puppy, they will ask a lot of personal questions about you and your family and your lifestyle and your pet-owning history and more - beware the breeder who is just happy to take your money and hand over a cute puppy, no questions asked).
And of course, as others have said, it's very important to visit the home where your future puppy has been born and is being nurtured, meet the mother and other relatives. You may not be able to meet the dad; responsible breeders will seek the best possible stud for their litter and that stud may live 100 miles away or 1000 miles away or more. If your first visit to the breeder's home is six weeks or more after the puppies' birth and their mother was co-owned by another person, the mother dog might have gone back to the co-owner (i.e. she lived most of her life with one person and came to the other owner to stay while she was pregnant and whelped and nursed the pups); that has happened with two of the dogs I've had. But if you're a novice at evaluating puppies and have concerns about your children's safety, stick to a breeder who will let you meet the mother and hopefully other relatives before you make the final decision; it's a good sign if the mother is friendly and at least polite with kids - although that does not guarantee that the pup you buy will be perfect with kids when it grows up.
It's a great idea to go to a dog show, by the way. Just remember to always ask permission before touching any dog (and rein in your kids if they're with you), and expect some 'no's (especially if the dog and its handler are about to go into the ring, best not to ask at that point!). Most dog exhibitors expect some public interest at shows; some of the breeders there love to talk about their dogs and let their dogs be touched and petted; but it should be at their convenience (and the dogs') and with consideration for their schedule and their dogs' temperament.
Good luck!
OH SHOOT. Just noticed that the original post was in 2009!!!
OH SHOOT. Just noticed that the original post was in 2009!!!
Dang! Somebody did it to me again! I swear I thought I'd been checking OP dates on every thread I've been responding to! Obviously I didn't check THIS one closely enough!
Whatever. Lots of good info in this respectably aged thread! Thanks everyone!
I don't mind posting to an old thread if there is some good reason to do so - for instance - if what I posted was in a thread that was more comprehensive - like a "AKC vs APRI vs UKC" title. But I tend to feel a little embarrassed just reviving a conversation that is years old! But hey, I still have a sense of what is truly important, as well, which is why I indicated that I had to laugh at myself at the same time.
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), and red where I think there is more to the story, and it should be told.
