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Old 10-25-2010, 01:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
You can call it an income tax, if you want. In my little idea, the taxes would vary only slightly and by broad general category of household income. A 2-person household bringing in $200K/year, their property size would be compared to a little old lady living in the same size property on $12K a year (let's add that she has to have been living there for X number of years). A slightly higher tax amount for the higher income households would help offset the tax amounts for the very low income households. Some will jump on this for sure, but just putting out an idea. I realize the idealism in this and the bureaucracy, but someone could come up with some idea that would adjust taxes so the poorer elderly an stay in their homes.

Your second P: Have to think about that. But how many households in a small town, with children, can pay for the entire school budget (which is generally spiralling out of control)--? And, you are talking about private or home schooling, subject of another thread and not at all a bad idea.
Your idea isn't crazy or idealistic....there are MANY programs around the country that effectively do exactly what you are describing and I'm in favor of them. Here are two from a quick google search...

Property Tax Relief

http://www.comptroller1.state.tn.us/pa/pdf/ElderlyDisabledBrochure.pdf (broken link)
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Old 10-25-2010, 06:19 PM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 20,103,495 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Why do you keep dragging the argument back to a topic we've already agreed upon?

What is the last word in the thread topic?
Well posters did get off track going on about how anyone who is behind in taxes deserves to have the banks take over with collections. As usual I'm trying to point out the complexity of the situation, esp for the elderly on fixed incomes. Kind of like putting it in context, you know...to help give the discussion a more rounded view of "predatory tax collection."

And...what did we already agree upon?
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Old 10-25-2010, 08:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
Well posters did get off track going on about how anyone who is behind in taxes deserves to have the banks take over with collections. As usual I'm trying to point out the complexity of the situation, esp for the elderly on fixed incomes. Kind of like putting it in context, you know...to help give the discussion a more rounded view of "predatory tax collection."

And...what did we already agree upon?
We had agreed about laws and programs to ameliorate the tax debt of the elderly, pensioners etc. and that some towns etc. wayyyyy overspend and then push costs to the tax payer.

That is a completely separate argument from the failure to actually pay debts and the use of collection companies to get that money.

You have to realize that A LOT of mortgages in some areas....actually the MAJORITY of mortgages in some parts of the country are voluntary foreclosures since the owners became so upside down. So, if the county etc. has to play hardball with those folks so that I and you don't have to pay and extra 25% or whatever then fine.

So, you have some guy making 125k a year that just let the bank foreclose because his 500k home is only worth 300k now....yeah, god forbid they go after him for not paying his property taxes?
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Old 10-26-2010, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Near a river
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
We had agreed about laws and programs to ameliorate the tax debt of the elderly, pensioners etc. and that some towns etc. wayyyyy overspend and then push costs to the tax payer.

That is a completely separate argument from the failure to actually pay debts and the use of collection companies to get that money.

You have to realize that A LOT of mortgages in some areas....actually the MAJORITY of mortgages in some parts of the country are voluntary foreclosures since the owners became so upside down. So, if the county etc. has to play hardball with those folks so that I and you don't have to pay and extra 25% or whatever then fine.

So, you have some guy making 125k a year that just let the bank foreclose because his 500k home is only worth 300k now....yeah, god forbid they go after him for not paying his property taxes?
OK, I see your point(s). I agree in that respect.

I am thinking about what I see as more typical in my area of working class in NE. The modest/low income elderly couple (or widow or widower) can sustain slow increments up in property taxes. They've lived in town most of their lives, raised their family there. Suddenly the area becomes very desirable to outsiders who come in from bigger cities with great educations and high paying positions not even based in the town or nearby. They have kids who have everything and they want the town schools to be what they were like in upscale Petuniaville. They drive up the school budget to the point where the number of tax paying households in town cannot in any foreseeable way sustain the tax hikes over years or several decades. These new folks have no problem paying the taxes, heck they're a bargain compared to where they used to live! But elderly Mrs. Smith in the same town is in a very different financial situation. If her taxes fall behind, her debt goes to some g--knows-where bank collection agency that can rightfully force her to lose her property. It is possible we are going to see much more of this than the profile of what you describe above.

When a law is enacted, think of how it can hurt the most truly vulnerable in society...not just the irresponsible and the lazy.
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Old 10-29-2010, 08:55 PM
 
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LMAO just saw in another finance thread here about where upside down people were going up to 18 months without paying mortgage or property taxes and pocketing the money then defaulting.

Predatory indeed.
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Old 10-30-2010, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 20,103,495 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
LMAO just saw in another finance thread here about where upside down people were going up to 18 months without paying mortgage or property taxes and pocketing the money then defaulting.

Predatory indeed.
Doing the above and still living in the home?

How do they do this without getting an eviction from their lender

'Course we all know about some of the politicians who go years getting away without paying property taxes, till years later it catches up with them and they owe a bundle. In their income categories, why would they let their taxes slide that much, or at all???
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Old 10-31-2010, 04:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
Doing the above and still living in the home?

How do they do this without getting an eviction from their lender

'Course we all know about some of the politicians who go years getting away without paying property taxes, till years later it catches up with them and they owe a bundle. In their income categories, why would they let their taxes slide that much, or at all???
It takes a while to boot people. There are a LOT of threads around here with people doing this. One was some guy angry that his brother or other relative (I forget) makes >100k and has been pocketing a bunch of cash on his upside down house and it will be a year or so before they have to move out.

There is an eviction but from the time you STOP paying to the time you have to actually move out varies by state and if you are able to string along the mortgage company etc. it can take well over a year.

In tough economic times I have a lot of sympathy for these situations. However, there are also a lot of people gaming the system and not paying when they can. Always shades of grey and a wide range of stories.
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Old 10-31-2010, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hartford_renter View Post
I think the problem is that the banks can take anyone's house.

And this has nothing to do with a loan were an agreement was made, this has to do with taxes.
How do you know? Did you personally go and review all of the mortgage contracts?

No, you didn't, so you have no freaking idea what kind of mortgage contract they have. If the bank is fronting the money for property taxes, and sometimes they do that, then the bank has a legal right to foreclose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hartford_renter View Post
Taking the home should not be legal. Its like saying, you forgot to pay 1000$ in taxes, were going to fine you 1500, charge you 18% interest now you owe 3000K. So were taking your house?
You might want to read the city tax code while you're reviewing the mortgage contracts.

You don't pay taxes, the city/county seizes your home. It happens all the time.

It happens to businesses.

It happens to businesses in foreign countries. That's why Castro expropriated all US corporate assets in Cuba, for failure to pay taxes. That's why President Cardenas in Mexico expropriated all US oil company assets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hartford_renter View Post
Think about it, even if you file for bankruptcy, you generally get to keep your house, this rule is completely out of line IMO.
After you get through reviewing the mortgages and city tax codes, you can start studying bankruptcy law.

Generally, you cannot discharge taxes to the IRS, the state, county or city.

Also, you generally cannot discharge debts owed to government at any level, that would also include criminal or civil fines and penalties, and hospital bills from hospitals owned in whole or in part by the city, county or state (and universities are state entities so that includes "university hospitals" as well).
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Old 10-31-2010, 07:13 PM
 
4,246 posts, read 11,069,751 times
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LOL, owned.
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Old 11-01-2010, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 20,103,495 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
How do you know? Did you personally go and review all of the mortgage contracts?

No, you didn't, so you have no freaking idea what kind of mortgage contract they have. If the bank is fronting the money for property taxes, and sometimes they do that, then the bank has a legal right to foreclose.



You might want to read the city tax code while you're reviewing the mortgage contracts.

You don't pay taxes, the city/county seizes your home. It happens all the time.

It happens to businesses.

It happens to businesses in foreign countries. That's why Castro expropriated all US corporate assets in Cuba, for failure to pay taxes. That's why President Cardenas in Mexico expropriated all US oil company assets.



After you get through reviewing the mortgages and city tax codes, you can start studying bankruptcy law.

Generally, you cannot discharge taxes to the IRS, the state, county or city.

Also, you generally cannot discharge debts owed to government at any level, that would also include criminal or civil fines and penalties, and hospital bills from hospitals owned in whole or in part by the city, county or state (and universities are state entities so that includes "university hospitals" as well).
I'm not arguing that taxes owed are not rightfully due.

Government (national, city, town) debts (property taxes) are government debts. These debts do not belong in the hands of profit enterprises like banks. If governments impose taxes, they should own up to collecting them. If they don't have the wherewithal (personnel, etc) to do the repos, tough for them.

Period.
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