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Yes, but 30 years ago, the nurse was making crap money. And couldn't you say nurse vs doctor? I mean, nurses bust their behinds on the job just like most working class folks. That can be a rather physically demanding job.
What about truck drivers who own their own rigs? Owner-operators I believe if the term. Some truck driver can also pull some serious dough if they land the right gig. There's plenty of well paid tradesman, some pulling six figures. Of course, there's plenty more who would be lucky to pull half that. I always figured middle class was determined more by the paycheck, and not so much how you earned it.
Doctors, lawyers, etc typically aren't "middle-class."
CNA/Phelobotomist/LVN is working class, CNA/Phleb are actually more working poor.
RN is middle-class.
MD is upper-class.
Just as a rought ball park, an LVN makes about 40-50k/year here, an RN 70-80k, a GP $180k. There's some overlap... a CRNA, Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetists, makes $150-200k/year, about what a GP does. They might earn as much, but they're not in the same social class.
I notice the OP is from New Jersey. I think one may be also more aware of class differences based on where they grew up.
I grew up in a small rural farming community of the Midwest. While some people were richer and some were poorer, there was not a lot different classes of people because population was so small that everyone knew each other and tended to mingle with each other regardless. You couldn't separate too much into different class social structures. There just weren't enough people to do that. Also there weren't any very rich or very poor people. I won't say there was no class structure, but it was much more mild than what you may see in the cities, especially, coastal cities.
When I was 19, I traveled to New York City for the first and only time in my life. This was in the early 1980s. It was a real education in what class difference and wealth difference was all about. I saw very wealthy well dressed people getting out of limousines and walking by homeless people urinating in trash cans. I had never seen anything like that where I grew up.
I visited a well off cousin around that same period in my life. She lived in a place called Longboat Key,FL near Sarasota. I was invited to a club they belong to and when we got there Maitre 'D would not let me in until he gave me a tie, which I did not have with me and was required to dine there. It didn't match too well with my plaid shirt and I still laugh about that to this day, 30 some years later, but that was also a little education in differences in class environments.
My parents were fairly well educated and professional in the town we lived in but we just didn't feel much different than anyone else, whether they were local farmers or the guy who own the gas station at the edge of town.
yeah this is true. I've met working-class people like welders and steel workers who think they could do anything and who believe upper income white-collar workers could never hack the real blue collar work. Which strikes of envy and insecurity. Some of those working class people even think that they could have become doctors if they really wanted to. Lol right... you could have become a doctor but you just chose to become a welder instead.
I think there are some trades that the average person could not hack. In my experience, companies in my trade must test about 4-5 applicants before they find apprentice worthy material. I worked in a fabrication shop that was trying to hire a reasonably intelligent tool maker apprentice. They hired a fresh graduate from U of M. They spent about a month trying to get him to the point where he could square up a block.
He eventually cut himself on the job, to the point where he should have gone to the hospital for stitches. At that point, the company had an excuse to fire him for hiding the injury. The injury was entirely his fault too. He tried to drive a 2 inch drill through a large slab of steel without attempting to start with a smaller drill and working his way up. He also failed to butt the corner of the plate into the post of the drill press. The drill grabbed the plate and he smashed his fingers good. He's lucky the injury wasn't worse, because it could have easily broke a bone or knocked him over. Some folks are book smart, but have a complete lack of common sense.
I'm curious to hear what the correlation is between intelligence and social status. Is it only a mere popularity of job contest, or does it run deeper? I mean, I met some damn sharp mold and die makers, many of whom did have college degrees. I've met engineers who didn't have a college degree who made over 100K a year. Big houses, fancy cars, but often times jobs that most folks would label as working class. Sounds to me like education is placed at the forefront. I myself did not finish college. I do have an associates degree, and I didn't take the easy classes either. I took the trig, calc, biology, chemistry, went through most of nursing school, and maintained a 3.95 GPA. Based on most poster's assessments, I am very much working class at the end of the day though. My job may not be a popular choice, but it does pay a middle class income.
I think there are some trades that the average person could not hack. In my experience, companies in my trade must test about 4-5 applicants before they find apprentice worthy material. I worked in a fabrication shop that was trying to hire a reasonably intelligent tool maker apprentice. They hired a fresh graduate from U of M. They spent about a month trying to get him to the point where he could square up a block.
He eventually cut himself on the job, to the point where he should have gone to the hospital for stitches. At that point, the company had an excuse to fire him for hiding the injury. The injury was entirely his fault too. He tried to drive a 2 inch drill through a large slab of steel without attempting to start with a smaller drill and working his way up. He also failed to butt the corner of the plate into the post of the drill press. The drill grabbed the plate and he smashed his fingers good. He's lucky the injury wasn't worse, because it could have easily broke a bone or knocked him over. Some folks are book smart, but have a complete lack of common sense.
I'm curious to hear what the correlation is between intelligence and social status. Is it only a mere popularity of job contest, or does it run deeper? I mean, I met some damn sharp mold and die makers, many of whom did have college degrees. I've met engineers who didn't have a college degree who made over 100K a year. Big houses, fancy cars, but often times jobs that most folks would label as working class. Sounds to me like education is placed at the forefront. I myself did not finish college. I do have an associates degree, and I didn't take the easy classes either. I took the trig, calc, biology, chemistry, went through most of nursing school, and maintained a 3.95 GPA. Based on most poster's assessments, I am very much working class at the end of the day though. My job may not be a popular choice, but it does pay a middle class income.
There is a strong correlation between higher test scores and higher incomes. That isn't to say it is always a causal relationship, but on average higher intelligence leads to more money, which leads to a higher social status.
There is a strong correlation between higher test scores and higher incomes. That isn't to say it is always a causal relationship, but on average higher intelligence leads to more money, which leads to a higher social status.
Help me understand.
Intelligence -
a (1) : the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations : reason; also : the skilled use of reason (2) : the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria (as tests)
When we say higher intelligence, are we referring to someone that does (1) more often or someone that does (1) faster then others?
I think class distinction is much more prevalent in the US and the UK, it isn't really the case in Australia. I mean, obviously you've got your rich people and your poor people here but they never really mix at all, so nobody really feels class differences strongly.
I can strongly identify with being working class though, especially since I'm a scholarship kid at an expensive private school where I feel my background seems to stick out like a sore thumb compared to my wealthy classmates.
Regarding the OP's post, my experiences of growing up working class is quite different, I think it's because I was born to Chinese immigrant parents and my siblings and I were drilled with the idea that we HAD to succeed or else, aha. My parents were complete cheapskates except for anything regarding education; they paid for tutoring lessons, expensive private school uniforms, fancy computers and calculators etc. and going to university was a MUST to get a good, well-paying job that is prestigious in the eyes of many people, and meeting a 'suitable' spouse lol.
a (1) : the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations : reason; also : the skilled use of reason (2) : the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria (as tests)
When we say higher intelligence, are we referring to someone that does (1) more often or someone that does (1) faster then others?
Higher intelligence means someone has the innate ability to learn things easier or faster than another. They don't necessarily DO those things faster or better. There aren't a lot of great studies out there on the subject, which is why I said there was a correlation instead of saying there was a causal relationship. Here is a graph from another study that looked at IQ vs income, and that has a positive correlation as well. Note: IQ has a positive correlation with income, not with wealth. The 'working class' person who is smart, saves their money, and has a good plan can easily become more wealthy than the irresponsible doctor or lawyer.
yeah this is true. I've met working-class people like welders and steel workers who think they could do anything and who believe upper income white-collar workers could never hack the real blue collar work. Which strikes of envy and insecurity. Some of those working class people even think that they could have become doctors if they really wanted to. Lol right... you could have become a doctor but you just chose to become a welder instead.
I think this is an arrogant attitude despite the and wrong in some cases. If someone was truly bright and but didn't have the access to higher education then it would have been feasible for them to become a doctor. Might have had family obligations, needed to put food on the table after high school and no time/money for college. There are places in America where kids simply finish high school and pick up a trade/factory job and parents don't encourage college nor have the resources to pay for it.
I have met Doctors that couldn't change a tire yet they could tell you all about cancer cell reproduction...... All book smart and zero common sense.
I think one of the biggest mistakes in life is to under/over estimate someone's intelligence based on their job. That being said, I have only met a few welders and while they were good at their trade I don't suspect any of them wanted to be a doctor nor proclaimed they could be.
Note: IQ has a positive correlation with income, not with wealth. The 'working class' person who is smart, saves their money, and has a good plan can easily become more wealthy than the irresponsible doctor or lawyer.
This is an excellent point. It turns out that a higher IQ may earn you more income, but when it comes to saving/investing/wealth, an average IQ is almost as good as a high one.
He eventually cut himself on the job, to the point where he should have gone to the hospital for stitches. At that point, the company had an excuse to fire him for hiding the injury. The injury was entirely his fault too. He tried to drive a 2 inch drill through a large slab of steel without attempting to start with a smaller drill and working his way up. He also failed to butt the corner of the plate into the post of the drill press. The drill grabbed the plate and he smashed his fingers good. He's lucky the injury wasn't worse, because it could have easily broke a bone or knocked him over. Some folks are book smart, but have a complete lack of common sense.
I'm curious to hear what the correlation is between intelligence and social status. Is it only a mere popularity of job contest, or does it run deeper? I mean, I met some damn sharp mold and die makers, many of whom did have college degrees. I've met engineers who didn't have a college degree who made over 100K a year. Big houses, fancy cars, but often times jobs that most folks would label as working class. Sounds to me like education is placed at the forefront. I myself did not finish college. I do have an associates degree, and I didn't take the easy classes either. I took the trig, calc, biology, chemistry, went through most of nursing school, and maintained a 3.95 GPA. Based on most poster's assessments, I am very much working class at the end of the day though. My job may not be a popular choice, but it does pay a middle class income.
An engineering graduate (to which the first paragraph above presumably refers) ought to understand the basic laws of mechanics and from purely analytical grounds reason to "common sense" practices such as clamping the work-piece to the drill press. My feeling is that a person who is "book smart" but lacks common sense isn't book-smart at all, but simply adroit at test-taking or memorizing the material. A creative thinker, even if unpracticed in a particular art, would not be devoid of "common sense", unless he were pathologically arrogant.
As for the correlation between intelligence and social status, my personal sentiment is to associate "upper class" with a lifelong zeal for learning, for self-improvement not towards some practical goal such as earning more money, but for the sheer majesty of beholding nature with greater sophistication. "Middle class" would be a more narrowly strategic learning, where one seeks to gain promotion in the workplace by acquiring more marketable skills. "Lower class" would be a derisive dismissal of learning as something senseless and effete. I am of course idealizing, since the actual class structure doesn't work that way.
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All book smart and zero common sense.
