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Old 03-06-2016, 05:05 PM
 
1,198 posts, read 1,794,671 times
Reputation: 1728

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ContrarianEcon View Post
You can't get a bottom end job unless you already live within commuting distance. They want you to start today. After you start it takes 3 weeks until the first check arrives. How many checks until you can afford to move? How do you get to and from work in the mean time? In a lot of places no car means no job on the bottom end. Having a car means having a lot more opportunities for work.


PhD level job search. You send out you résumé to every opening in the country, or world, and you move to where the work is and they will pay you to move in a lot of cases.
Every year thousands of undergrads spend thousands of dollars they saved up to interview at a few medical schools, normally crashing on the couch of a student already in attendance there.

Four years later those same students again spend thousands (that they've saved up, no student loans for flying around the country) to interview at residencies around the US.

And just a few months later those students move cross country to work 80 hour weeks for $50k/yr with minimal time off for the next three to ten years.

Eight years of making very little if anything yet saving enough for a few major life events, followed by another three years of making very little on an hourly basis, and thousands do it knowing eventually the HARD WORK should pay off.

It is ok to expect a Doctor to postpone wages for a decade until they have a skill set that is valued above minimum wage, and they are able to pay for a few major moves/life events, certainly we can expect the same of any highschool graduate?

Flip/mop/cashier until you shift manage, then store manage, then transfer to a better store (have you seen what a manager at QT or In-n-Out makes?). This would surely take less time and sacrifice than getting a medical education.

But it's a generation of Grasshoppers, not ants, and as a generation we are Veruca Salt.

want a feast
I want a bean feast
Cream buns and doughnuts and fruitcake with no nuts so good you could go nuts.
No, now!
I want a ball
I want a party
Pink macaroons and a million balloons and performing baboons and
Give it to me now.
I want the world,
I want the whole world.
I want to lock it all up in my pocket
It's my bar of chocolate
Give it to me now!
I want today
I want tomorrow
I want to wear them like braids in my hair and I don't want to share them
I want a party with roomfuls of laughter
Ten thousand ton of ice cream
And if I don't get the things I am after
I'm going to scream!
I want the works,
I want the whole works!
Presents and prizes and sweets and surprises in all shapes and sizes,
And now!
Don't care how I want it now!
Don't care how I want it now!

It's not all their fault, just as with Veruca the parents had a role in molding them, but are we best served by further defraying life lessons? Can't we teach our young how to use a fishing pole instead of giving them fish?

I'm all about progressive taxes, I certainly enjoy an America that few will ever know without hard work and a bit of luck, but blantant handouts seem to encourage sloth instead of industry and we need producers in addition to consumers to hold it all together.
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Old 03-06-2016, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Atlantis
3,016 posts, read 3,914,768 times
Reputation: 8867
If a basic income scheme winds up resembling something that might appear to work (about as much as socialism could work), then it will only be made possible due to the existence of a central bank and fiat currency.


Socialism and statist smoke & mirror schemes are alot harder to implement and maintain when real money is required.
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Old 03-06-2016, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,621 posts, read 19,196,258 times
Reputation: 21743
Canada already tried Basic Income once with the Manitoba Basic Annual Income Experiment.

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~simpson...per%201993.pdf
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Old 03-06-2016, 05:35 PM
 
Location: Orange County, CA
4,908 posts, read 3,368,585 times
Reputation: 2977
Seems to me that it is going to become reality. Even more shocking is that it has support from people all across the ideological spectrum:

Time to take Basic Income seriously | Brookings Institution

Quote:
As Michael Howard, coordinator of the U.S. Basic Income Guarantee Network, told Newsweek magazine: “We may find ourselves going into the future with fewer jobs for everybody. So as a society, we need to think about partially decoupling income from employment.

The idea is now gaining traction among U.S. libertarians from the Cato Institute, led by Matt Zwolinski, social conservatives like Charles Murray from the American Enterprise Institute, and left-wingers like Matt Bruenig and Elizabeth Stoker.
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Old 03-06-2016, 05:38 PM
 
Location: Orange County, CA
4,908 posts, read 3,368,585 times
Reputation: 2977
Another good (and quite lengthy) article on the subject:

A World Without Work - The Atlantic
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Old 03-06-2016, 07:57 PM
 
34,279 posts, read 19,405,006 times
Reputation: 17261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Canada already tried Basic Income once with the Manitoba Basic Annual Income Experiment.

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~simpson...per%201993.pdf
Yup. And the results were promising...in 1977. Presumably this is designed to get better data.

And...to be honest this sort of thing NEEDS good data. If it has bad results we need to know that, and plan differently. If it has good results, we need to understand what they will be.
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Old 03-06-2016, 08:06 PM
 
1,115 posts, read 1,470,319 times
Reputation: 1687
What do they look for in these experiments? I don't see how you can have negative results in giving people free money?

Are they looking for more consumer spending? Debt reduction? I don't know much about basic income but I'm wondering g what negative factors they are looking for?
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Old 03-06-2016, 08:14 PM
 
34,279 posts, read 19,405,006 times
Reputation: 17261
Quote:
Originally Posted by UntilTheNDofTimE View Post
What do they look for in these experiments? I don't see how you can have negative results in giving people free money?

Are they looking for more consumer spending? Debt reduction? I don't know much about basic income but I'm wondering g what negative factors they are looking for?
Some examples would be-what % stopped working, and if they did stop working, what did they do? Did they raise children? Did they go to college? Or did they sit around playing xbox's (something that didnt even EXIST in 1977). Do they start more businesses since they have a risk cushion thats normally only for those well off?

Basically...whats the cost/benefit of this. Theres LOTS of negative possibilities. But theres also a ton of positive things as well.

Do jail rates go down? How about homelessness? What are the changes to social services?

This sort of idea is NOT cheap, or free. We have to understand the benefits vs's the costs to make decisions about it. Personally I'm happy to see experiments, but currently the cost outweighs the benefits in my opinion.

Last edited by greywar; 03-06-2016 at 08:22 PM..
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Old 03-06-2016, 09:14 PM
 
569 posts, read 553,636 times
Reputation: 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Some examples would be-what % stopped working, and if they did stop working, what did they do? Did they raise children? Did they go to college? Or did theyit around playing xbox's (sagriculture didnt even EXIST in 1977). Do they start more businesses since they have a risk cushion thats normally only for those well off?

Basically...whats the cost/benefit of this. Theres LOTS of negative possibilities. But theres also a ton of positive things as well.

Do jail rates go down? How about homelessness? What are the changes to social services?

This sort of idea is NOT cheap, or free. We have to understand the benefits vs's the costs to make decisions about it. Personally I'm happy to see experiments, but currently the cost outweighs the benefits in my opinion.
I would say the Canadians have the characteristics to put the idea through. But what are the economic backbones to nourish the programme? Selling the mineral waters?

Their brothers in Asia are the raw arguriculture producers, that sell even the sea salts. But those were just the surpluses to the wallets for their brothers on the Southern sides.

The "True North" is freezing to an extend that the global warming is pleasant; my guess though.
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Old 03-06-2016, 09:21 PM
 
34,279 posts, read 19,405,006 times
Reputation: 17261
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPPU12345 View Post
I would say the Canadians have the characteristics to put the idea through. But what are the economic backbones to nourish the programme? Selling the mineral waters?

Their brothers in Asia are the raw arguriculture producers, that sell even the sea salts. But those were just the surpluses to the wallets for their brothers on the Southern sides.

The "True North" is freezing to an extend that the global warming is pleasant; my guess though.
Canada is rich in natural resources. That being said....I really dont think basic income is appropriate for any country currently. I do expect it some day, but not for a long time.
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