Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The anti-US-manufacturing forces are suddenly, for the first time in decades, finding themselves under pressure, and they are pulling out all the stops to make sure manufacturing jobs do not return to the US.
First, "Oh, all those jobs were lost to automation, so it doesn't matter anyway": yes, and that's why the Midwest is full of highly automated factories making all those US-made consumer goods that we buy at Walmart, right? Oh, wait -
Now, "Manufacturing is SOO dirty and dangerous": yes, if your idea of typical manufacturing is the media-hyped image of an iron foundry circa 1920. Of course there are industrial accidents. Don't fool yourself into thinking the "service occupations" these people want to replace manufacturing with are risk-free. I believe one of the highest rates of accident and job-related injury is among nurses. True, highly paid people with advanced educations who sit all day in offices are unlikely to experience work-related accidents. But those are not the jobs that will replace direct-labor manufacturing jobs. Direct-labor manufacturing jobs will be replaced by jobs like nursing home attendant, janitor, warehouse stocker, UPS driver, and so on, none of which are risk free either.
The cold hard truth is that in order for the US to keep leading the world economy, we need to transition as many people as possible to high-skill jobs and away from low-skill jobs.
A person designing the next generation of medical robots is much more productive and generates more economic output than a person cutting sheet metal.
This is why China is trying to shed manufacturing jobs, and transition to a more advanced skill labor. We, on the other hand, is trying to backwards. We were kicking everyone's butts under Obama but some people decided that they just can't let go of these low-skill jobs.
Notice I say, low-skill jobs; because there are many many high-skill manufacturing jobs that go unfilled because companies can't find qualified people. When people say they want manufacturing jobs, what they really mean is "low skill" jobs that any yahoo can do.
I got news for you people, the labor market will demand higher and higher skill, even for manufacturing jobs. You can't hide behind Trump and his tariffs.
.
The cold hard truth is that in order for the US to keep leading the world economy, we need to transition as many people as possible to high-skill jobs and away from low-skill jobs.
A person designing the next generation of medical robots is much more productive and generates more economic output than a person cutting sheet metal.
This is why China is trying to shed manufacturing jobs, and transition to a more advanced skill labor. We, on the other hand, is trying to backwards. We were kicking everyone's butts under Obama but some people decided that they just can't let go of these low-skill jobs.
Notice I say, low-skill jobs; because there are many many high-skill manufacturing jobs that go unfilled because companies can't find qualified people. When people say they want manufacturing jobs, what they really mean is "low skill" jobs that any yahoo can do.
I got news for you people, the labor market will demand higher and higher skill, even for manufacturing jobs. You can't hide behind Trump and his tariffs.
.
The cold hard truth is that work place is greatly de-skilled. Many so called skilled jobs can be performed by unskilled workers after bare minimum of on job training. This includes engineering and research. Entire "skill" hoopla is a byproduct of tremendous labor glut which drives employers mad with impunity. They can impose layer upon layer of silly pointless demands on the peons just for the kicks. As for automation jobs, entire point of automation is to replace labor, including automation labor itself. Unfortunately, the way greater economy deals with labor surplus is pure wasteful insanity at the time of great uncertainty about resources, energy, climate. It is doubtful humanity can afford Economics 101 for much longer.
The cold hard truth is that work place is greatly de-skilled. Many so called skilled jobs can be performed by unskilled workers after bare minimum of on job training. This includes engineering and research.
This is preposterous.
Find me one single unskilled laborer who got hired by Google/Facebook/Testla/Maxium/Intel/Oracle/etc to its engineering team after some bare minimum job training.
Find me one single unskilled laborer who got hired by Google/Facebook/Testla/Maxium/Intel/Oracle/etc to its engineering team after some bare minimum job training.
.
I am pretty sure even Google etc. has a whole range of technical positions they could on job train unskilled laborers for provided the real need. I dont see how google is different from the lab I worked at where many technical jobs could be performed by smarter monkeys and yet they would not hire anyone without at least an associate degree (and family connections), and more frequently than not they used and still use Ph.D.s to perform low end lab tasks a laborer could master in less that a few days. Besides you forget that only 5% of labor force labors in Sci&Eng, only a tiny fraction of those performs cutting edge design work and original research, while the rest of design work is highly standardized, automated and restricted (for legal purposes), a generic engineer is little more than human interface for software doing actual engineering. Yes, provided the will employers could easily train smarter laborers for that sort of routine engineering. And as for the rest 95,% of labor force, it is de skilled and specialized to the point, there are no objective reasons a laborer could not be on job trained for many of those jobs.
I am pretty sure even Google etc. has a whole range of technical positions they could on job train unskilled laborers for provided the real need.
You're pretty sure??
Basically, you got nothing. Exactly what I thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee
I dont see how google is different from the lab I worked at where many technical jobs could be performed by smarter monkeys and yet they would not hire anyone without at least an associate degree (and family connections), and more frequently than not they used and still use Ph.D.s to perform low end lab tasks a laborer could master in less that a few days. Besides you forget that only 5% of labor force labors in Sci&Eng, only a tiny fraction of those performs cutting edge design work and original research, while the rest of design work is highly standardized, automated and restricted (for legal purposes), a generic engineer is little more than human interface for software doing actual engineering. Yes, provided the will employers could easily train smarter laborers for that sort of routine engineering. And as for the rest 95,% of labor force, it is de skilled and specialized to the point, there are no objective reasons a laborer could not be on job trained for many of those jobs.
And then you basically debunked your own argument.
Yes, the labs you work at DON'T just hire monkeys with minimal training like you said, and often they use Ph.Ds!
The cold hard truth is that in order for the US to keep leading the world economy, we need to transition as many people as possible to high-skill jobs and away from low-skill jobs.
.
First of all, manufacturing is where wealth is created (along with mining and agriculture). If you don't have these economic sectors, you are not sustainable long-term, because you are not creating wealth, only moving it around.
Second, high-skill jobs exist in manufacturing as well as other fields. In fact, the average skill level in a manufacturing company is probably about equal to that in a software company, and definitely way higher than in consumer retail, which seem to be the two industries that appear to be proposed as the replacement for manufacturing.
Third, the people howling "the jobs are lost to automation" clearly have never been involved in factory automation projects. Jobs are lost when operations are automated. They are lost a few at a time, not an entire factory at a time. The supporting companies (tool and die makers - how many of you even know what a tool and die shop is or what it does? industrial supply houses, manufacturing consumables sales (cutting tools, lubricants, etc.), and all the components going into maintenance and continued operation of those automated factories) all remain, although the nature of what they supply will alter over time.
When you shut down a factory and send all the jobs to China or Mexico, where do you think the stamping tools, or the indexable inserts, or the replacement conveyor parts, or replacement proximity switches, come from? Not the US.
Who do you think gets the business of removing the scrap metal, hauling away the hazmats, fixing the roof, updating/repairing the electrical system, etc., of the Chinese plant? I'll give you a hint: Chinese plants don't hire US metal recyclers to haul away their machining chips. So the jobs lost when you close a factory in the US and source the parts or products from China are far more than the jobs lost as that factory automates its operations.
This is something that the media and many of the so-called experts don't understand; which isn't surprising since they rarely show any evidence of ever even entering a manufacturing plant except for a photo op, never mind actually working there.
Fourth: what exactly do you propose the US military do for rolling element bearings should we ever get in an actual military dispute with China or one of their client states, now that the vast majority of the American rolling element bearing industry has disappeared to China? Don't know what a rolling element bearing is? Well, I can tell you that precious few pieces of military equipment don't rely on rolling element bearings either for the product itself or the manufacturing process to make it. This is just one of many examples of why getting rid of manufacturing is not only bad for the economy but also for national security.
The cold hard truth is that in order for the US to keep leading the world economy, we need to transition as many people as possible to high-skill jobs and away from low-skill jobs.
.
If you get a chance, read The Innovator's Dilemma. It turns out moving to high value add sometimes doesn't work out.
Find me one single unskilled laborer who got hired by Google/Facebook/Testla/Maxium/Intel/Oracle/etc to its engineering team after some bare minimum job training.
.
One of my daughter's high school classmates was set to go to an elite university until Facebook offered him a solid 6-figure salary in its engineering organization. Not bad for a 17 year old. He decided to take the job at Facebook. He now earns north of $250K. Not bad for a 25 year old with no student debt.
One of my daughter's high school classmates was set to go to an elite university until Facebook offered him a solid 6-figure salary in its engineering organization. Not bad for a 17 year old. He decided to take the job at Facebook. He now earns north of $250K. Not bad for a 25 year old with no student debt.
Your daughter's high school classmate is definitely NOT an unqualified unskill laborer. In fact, he is highly skilled and got into an elite university. The fact that he doesn't have a degree is not the point, a person can be highly skilled but has no degree.
So yes, that IS exactly my point. Companies of today don't just hire some unskilled yahoo, they demand skill.
.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
