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The money to run society has to come from somewhere. That needs to be balanced with leaving people enough incentive to want to work hard and build wealth for their families. Currently we run 500 billion to trillion dollar deficits yearly. I would think something needs to change, unless we can run debt like this in perpetuity. I'd be in favor of raising taxes on everyone with a bit more emphasis on the elderly for the express purpose of lowering the debt. I'm sorry to say, I don't have much faith that the money would actually be used for that purpose though.
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Originally Posted by SoCal25
You don't get elected running on a "cut the deficit through tax increases" platform. You might get elected on a "free stuff for group A financed by increased taxes on group B" platform if the numerical disparity between the two groups is large enough to overcome group B's financial and power advantages in an election.
It seems a "cut the deficit" platform is a loser. No one wants to take away the punch bowl.
Many on the progressive left are running on a "string up the rich and make them pay their fair share" platform, ignoring of course the inconvenient fact that the rich already pay more than their fair share.
Several on the progressive left, including AOC, and apparently also including Native American US Senator Elizabeth Warren, now assert that deficits do not matter. The idea is a result of a radical fringe theory of economics branded MMT - Modern Monetary Theory. In reality, neither AOC nor EW understand economics, but they both like the idea that deficits do not matter as it then gives carte blanche to the government to increase costly social programs by giving out free stuff to people who have not earned it and do not deserve it.
Economy is built around coercion of those who have less.
No it isn't. The economy is built around individuals deeply understanding problems and crafting products, services, and business models to satisfy the needs of those with the problems, thereby making everyone's life better off. Those with the problem voluntarily exchange their hard-earned money for a product or service they wish to buy from a seller who voluntarily wishes to sell the solution.
Everyone is better off - even those who never took economics.
Silly analogy. How much redistribution it would take for a top 1% to fear about having food on the table? If I lose my car that fear sets in immidiately. What loss does it take for a 1% er to experience similar worries?
The fear of losing your car gives you a strong incentive to create value in the economy for which you receive just compensation.
Why do you think your personal welfare depends on the welfare of the top 1%? Is it merely envy?
No it isn't. The economy is built around individuals deeply understanding problems and crafting products, services, and business models to satisfy the needs of those with the problems, thereby making everyone's life better off. Those with the problem voluntarily exchange their hard-earned money for a product or service they wish to buy from a seller who voluntarily wishes to sell the solution.
Everyone is better off - even those who never took economics.
That's nice recitation of Econ 101 but it is notorious for ignoring the issues of economic coercion, wage slavery and sad&bloody economic history of mankind. All that crafting of the products sits on the shoulders of economic if not physical coercion. Take that coercion away and the issue of taxation of the mega rich will cease to exist because free people do not exchange their labor (health, longevity, etc. etc. etc.) at obscenely unequal terms no matter their education and talents. If you, Chicago school of economics together with Fox news anchors and Bill Gates will end up at an uninhabited island you'll need to crack certain number of skulls open to achieve 1:10000 labor exchange rates. There is no another way. We are a product of multi-generational oppression and culling of the less compliant and yet if you'll end up at an uninhabited island you'll not able to replicate an economic order you are accustomed to without cracking some skulls open.
Last edited by RememberMee; 02-10-2019 at 08:24 PM..
That's nice recitation of Econ 101 but it is notorious for ignoring the issues of economic coercion, wage slavery and sad&bloody economic history of mankind. All that crafting of the products sits on the shoulders of economic if not physical coercion. Take that coercion away and the issue of taxation of the mega rich will cease to exist because free people do not exchange their labor (health, longevity, etc. etc. etc.) at obscenely unequal terms no matter their education and talents. If you, Chicago school of economics together with Fox news anchors and Bill Gates will end up at an uninhabited island you'll need to crack certain number of skulls open to achieve 1:10000 labor exchange rates. There is not another way. We are a product of multi-generational oppression and culling of the less compliant and yet if you'll end up at an uninhabited island you'll not able to replicate an economic order you are accustomed to without cracking some skulls open.
Economic coercion? Is that like when Elon Musk creates an electronic vehicle and FORCES me to buy it?
Wage slavery? Is that like when I used to work for minimum wage because no one would pay me LESS?
Good grief...this is a history lesson from some other universe.
The fear of losing your car gives you a strong incentive to create value in the economy for which you receive just compensation.
Why do you think your personal welfare depends on the welfare of the top 1%? Is it merely envy?
The fear of the whip encouraged a slave to create value in the cotton fields. So? But who decides what "value" is and who assigns value to your work, health, life, etc.. while risking nothing of that sort themselves to boot? A human has only two values in this life - his time and his health/life. Free humans do not exchange those things at obscenely unequal rates. We do that sort of equal exchange all the time because of institutionalized multi generational coercion that took unaccounted number of lives to establish.
Last edited by RememberMee; 02-10-2019 at 08:24 PM..
Economic coercion? Is that like when Elon Musk creates an electronic vehicle and FORCES me to buy it?
Wage slavery? Is that like when I used to work for minimum wage because no one would pay me LESS?
Good grief...this is a history lesson from some other universe.
You live in a coercive society that crowns the last 10,000 years of human evolution. Naturally your eye sight is blurred just like that of a guy who grew up in a cave without sunlight. You just refuse/incapable to see how coercive the environment you live in is especially if your perch in life provides for the things the proles cannot have. Just think about Bill Gates and Chicago School of economics recreating Econ 101 on an uninhabited island. How many corpses it would take for those guys to establish 1:10000 labor exchange rates in their Econ 101 paradise? That was the question. I want to see Econ 101 answer to that question. As for Elon Mask, the guy doesn't create an electronic vehicle he manages creation and collect disproportionate share of the output for his visionary services. Perhaps most workers who do create those electric vehicles receive enough to live on, much unlike other proles who sacrifice their only lives for much less, but nevertheless Elon Mask would have hell of a time convincing those workers to work for 1/10000th of his income without institutionalized economic coercion making those workers more soft and pliable. Econ 101 assumes that workers settle their labor exchange ideas with institutionally unassisted Elon Mask. So basically Econ 101 postulates that Santa is real.
"[there is] evidence that extreme wealth has a corrosive effect on the economy. Wealth inequality places immense resources in the hands of people unable to spend it productively, and keeps it out of the hands of those who would put it to use instantly..."
This is exactly what I posted earlier... that the global savings glut, where ultra-wealthy individuals and institutions have mountains of excess cash sitting idle and doing nothing, is grossly unproductive. We need a wealth tax to siphon up dead cash to put it to productive use.
Why not tax a billionaire? If someone has $2 billion, and taxes knocks it down to $1.5 billion, will he or she even notice? Their lifestyle won't change, they can still buy whatever they want and have every need fulfilled.
So ... I have 100% of my wealth of $2 billion in my private business.
I don’t have $2 billion in cash
How do I pay a $500 million tax without liquidating the business and putting thousands of people out of work?
I ( and lots of others) have my $2 billion in wealth tied up in real estate holdings... how do I pay $500 million tax? If I sell up the market collapses because there will be no buyers because everyone will be selling to pay the tax ...
I have my $2 billion tied up in stocks ... if I sell to pay the tax the market will collapse ( again because everyone will be selling to pay the tax)
The thing about moronic ideas is that they sound so good until REALITY is brought to bear.
Taking $25k from someone with $100k in savings would have a HUGE impact on their lifestyle, in two areas: 1) his retirement would take a huge hit (compare $75k compounded over time vs. $100k) and 2) his ability to handle financial emergencies.
Again, the billionaire with $2.0B vs $1.5B wouldn't notice any difference in lifestyle, retirement, financial health, his estate, heirs, etc.
This post is proof that you don't have the first concept about what you're discussing.
If someone has a fortune amounting to $2.0 billion dollars, that money isn't in a checking account or in a safe deposit box in a bank vault. It's tied up in the assets of the company or investments. Very little of that wealth is in the form of liquid assets.
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