Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jetgraphics bought up a good point. National currencies are not just worthless, they're worse than worthless because they're debt notes. They are lent into existence with interest attached. But that interest doesn't exist yet, it needs to be created too. Which means there is never enough currency to pay off debt + interest, and debt needs to expand into infinity. And no one sees how tragically absurd the system is.
Last edited by Taggerung; 05-08-2020 at 11:12 AM..
The probability is 0. Don't you see what Fed is doing? They will (aggressively) do anything to prevent it from happening, and besides, there are not so many reasons for collapsing.
There might be a recession/depression (deeper than what we have right now), but it won't get that bad so soon, give it at least couple of decades.
On a scale from 1-10, with 1 being an impossibility and 10 being an absolute certainty, how likely is it that the US will experience a currency crisis and a sovereign debt crisis in the next 3 years?
Also, just curious, do you keep all your savings in gold and have self-sufficient land?
This is an economics discussion and last time I checked gold was an industrial metal or jewellery. The gold currency you speak of is a relic from the past. Welcome to the 21st century
BTW, I'm not saying there will never be a US debt crisis. The question is what would trigger it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics
D. If you think this is NOT FRAUD, ask your congressman to explain exactly how CONGRESS borrowed 22+ trillion dollars (not dollar bills) when the world wide supply of gold bullion is a tiny fraction.
World supply of gold bullion (est) 5.9 billion ounces. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold
183,600 tonnes x 32151 =5,902,923,600 troy ounces
If coined, pursuant to the Coinage Act of 1792, would compute to
â— 122,024,260,465.11
â— $122 billion dollars
Also, just curious, do you keep all your savings in gold and have self-sufficient land?
I actually think silver provides far more value than gold right now. But let's just say I'm betting heavily against the debt, and heavily on the governments and central banks to keep being reckless and to keep doing the wrong things. Which I think is a more than reasonable bet to make.
Jetgraphics bought up a good point. National currencies are not just worthless, they're worse than worthless because they're debt notes.
B-b-b-b-better buy a pick-up truck Comrade Taggerung. You'll need it to haul around all the things you need to trade for the things you want.
I'm serious. You put a pig in the backseat of your car and it will root up the seats. Then nobody will be able to sit in the backseat.
Then you'll have to go to U-Haul to rent a trailer to haul around all the stuff you'll need to trade for a new car and it will probably take you weeks or months of haggling to do that.
I mention that because currencies make it very easy to obtain the goods and services you want, so they're not as worthless as you think.
Can we first discuss what would trigger a currency/debt crisis first before predicting the probability of it happening.
We are in uncharted territory, so we really don't know. The dollar is no longer a US currency, it is a world currency. If the world economy goes into an extended depression, some of the sovereign wealth funds may need to raise money for disaster relief. One of the ways they could do that is to sell dollars for imports. If production is down and demand is up, it could put downward pressure on the dollar. We would see that as inflation in the US, since we depend on imports. Other countries could see that as erosion of the purchasing power of their dollar reserves. If they start to accelerate their dollar sales as a result, it would create a feedback loop.
Right now the Fed is adjusting the money supply to pay all the bills, no matter how high. If we get into an inflation cycle, they will have to stop that. Their whole reason for existence is to protect the value of the dollar. They would have to raise interest rates to make the dollar more attractive. So far, that has not happened. No matter how bad the dollar looks, every other currency looks worse. As long as that continues, any currency crisis won't be our currency crisis. Those of us who lived through the Volcker years know how ugly a currency defense can get. Keep your fingers crossed. If businesses and farms had to pay over 10% interest to borrow operating capital, it would destroy huge segments of the US economy. It has happened before, though not in 40 years.
As I said, this is uncharted territory. The world economy has never taken a blow like this one. The US economy is projected to shrink 5.9% this year, and the EU is projected to drop 7.5%. The Chinese think they are still going to grow 2.1%, but continued coronavirus outbreaks could easily wreck that.
This is an economics discussion and last time I checked gold was an industrial metal or jewellery. The gold currency you speak of is a relic from the past. Welcome to the 21st century
BTW, I'm not saying there will never be a US debt crisis. The question is what would trigger it.
You might benefit from reading the law, available at any county courthouse law library.
Whether you wish to believe it or not, the law is the law, and not what you think it is.
The Coinage Act of 1792 still defines the unit DOLLAR to be a silver coin, and a one ounce gold coin (double eagle) is equivalent to 20 SILVER dollars. Silver was demonetized in the Coinage Act of 1873 - but that only applied to the Federal government. Silver dollars circulated as lawful money until they vanished from circulation. And as we all know "Saint" FDR confiscated all the gold money (double eagles, etc) in 1933, when the STATE OF EMERGENCY was declared.
"A majority of the people of the United States have lived all of their lives under emergency rule. For 40 years (as of the report 1933-1973), freedoms and governmental procedures guaranteed by the Constitution have, in varying degrees, been abridged by laws brought into force by states of national emergency."
FREEDOMS ... GUARANTEED BY THE CONSTITUTION ... HAVE BEEN ABRIDGED BY LAWS ... UNDER EMERGENCY RULE ...
Constitutional U.S.A. (1789 - 1933) R.I.P.
<< * You're currently living under the People's Democratic Socialist Republic of America. * No constitutional money * No endowed rights * No private property * Full compliance with the ten planks of the communist manifesto * by your consent * >>
===========
CONSTITUTIONAL MONEY
Article 1, Section 10. U.S. Constitution
No State shall ... coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any ... Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, ...
Note: only gold and silver coin PAY DEBT. And if Congress had the power to create money, it wouldn't need the power to borrow it. Congress can only coin money (stamp bullion). It cannot create bullion.
DOLLAR BILLS ARE NOT DOLLARS
TITLE 12,CHAPTER 3,SUBCHAPTER XII,sec. 411. Issuance to reserve banks; nature of obligation; redemption
" Federal reserve notes, to be issued at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System for the purpose of making advances to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized. The said notes shall be OBLIGATIONS of the United States and shall be receivable by all national and member banks and Federal reserve banks and for all taxes, customs, and other public dues. They shall be redeemed in LAWFUL MONEY on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank."
The dollar bill (FRN) is an IOU, issued on the authority of Congress to BORROW money.
Ahem - where's the lawful money lent to the Congress?
LAWFUL MONEY - "The terms 'lawful money' and 'lawful money of the United States' shall be construed to mean gold or silver coin of the United States..."
- - - Title 12 United States Code, Sec. 152.
. . . .
"Dollars, or units; each to be of the value of a Spanish milled as the same is now current, and to contain three hundred and seventy-one grains and four-sixteenths parts of a grain of pure, or four hundred and sixteen grains of standard, silver."
"Eagles each to be of the value of ten dollars or units, and to contain two hundred and forty-seven grains and four eighths of a grain of pure, or two hundred and seventy grains of standard gold."
- - - Sec. 9, Coinage Act of 1792, January 1792
A one ounce gold coin (double eagle) was to have the value of twenty dollars or units (silver).
WELCOME TO REALITY
Have you ever bought anything with lawful money?
What do you call someone who doesn't pay their debts?
Bankrupts.
And CONgress has the power to administer bankruptcies.
OOPS
Looks like the CRISIS has been on going since 1933.
bernie committed fraud ... spending more then you have for what you say you are is not fraud ..
From what I've heard, Madoff excused his wrongdoings by saying what the Federal Government is essentially no different.
I.e. the infamous PONZI SCHEME...
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
