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Old 01-13-2009, 06:46 PM
 
2,541 posts, read 10,523,214 times
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isnt the price of oil whatever the price the people who mine, process, or own the land decides it will be?

Even with Supply and demand, what difference does it make

IT IS OIL

what else do you we use as fuel, and where are we gonna get it?
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Old 01-13-2009, 07:58 PM
 
268 posts, read 374,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Let me guess, you usually post in the political forums don't you? I suggest you return to it. You will find more rabid partisan fans that won't challenge you for facts.

The Washington Post story on the "secret meetings": “Though the report was roundly criticized by environmental groups at the time, some energy experts say that in retrospect it appears better balanced than the administration’s actual policy,” reported the Post. Cheney’s report “correctly forecast higher energy prices, stressed energy efficiency and conservation, and pushed for boosting domestic conventional energy supplies and increasing use of renewable energy. Although it advocated wider drilling and omitted climate-change measures, it also said that ‘using energy more wisely’ was the nation's ‘first challenge.’ "

let me guess, you voted for Bush and your profited from oil as well as other things from his administration
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Old 01-14-2009, 06:38 AM
 
Location: Fort Myers Fl
2,305 posts, read 2,749,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
No CBS would never falsify data *cough cough* Rathergate *cough cough*

Now speculation DID have a huge impact on oil prices, but that itself is also driven by supply and demand, or rather the speculation of supply and demand. There is no conspiracy on oil prices, it's all market driven. But it's your own defintion of what is "market driven". It all comes down to what investors, OPEC, etc THINK will be the future supply vs. the future demand.

And the comment of "well congress was doing investigation on oil prices and that caused oil to come down" is about as laughable as trusting CBS as an unquestionable news source.
I trade several ETF'S that follow crude prices so I do pay close attention to what is happening in futures markets. Demand was already dropping while prices were going up. And OPEC does not have as much power over crude prices as you would think, saw many times they would speak of decreasing production and no upward change in price. They are causing a price increase in oil today but it does not happen everytime they make a move.

Somewhere around June the CFTC jumped into the investigation, probably to get congress to think we are looking at it, so they could go bother someone else. Wall Street will get away with what they can, but they don't like investigations very much.

Supply and demand does affect the price of crude, but last summer it was not the cause of the high prices.
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Old 01-14-2009, 07:26 AM
 
93 posts, read 236,504 times
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hey all,

let me put in my .02... if you believe this oil debacle was/is anything but PURE SPECULATION by some real S@#MBAGS on "the street", you're a fool! had absolutely zero to do with ACTUAL supply and/or demand... all in the simple, GREEDY minds of traders that had/have NO business being trusted with their own $'s let alone others. moreover, these arrogant FOOLS belong in jail, not on the pedestal "wall st wanna be's" put them on... too many "kool aid" drinkers and "sheeple" out there!

although "technically" a commodity... oil IS just as essential, at this point in (our) history, as the water we drink and/or the air we breathe. what can be done today without it? unfortunately, our (all around) representatives are proving day after day to be a bunch of ignorant, self-serving, think only in the moment, POS's!!! DO NOT misconstrue my comments... this mess IS bi partisan AND this generation in "power" is, by far, the worst and most dangerous this great country has EVER seen. no matter what economic disaster we are facing today, ALL could have been avoided had it not been for the utter GREED AND STUPIDITY of those who implemented their "evil schemes" and/or had the ability to do something about it, but willingly chose to "look the other way".

our society has "swayed so far off the ethical carts", this (IMO) is a necessary purge. sad thing is... some innocent, hard working, "common goal" people are gonna get caught in the "squeeze" and may not make it out. unless something is done (right) and immediately... only the fittest will thrive or even survive. the void between those who have and those who have not is getting dangerously large... our all too important middle class is disappearing and/or slipping into nothingness. for the most part, (usa) americans have such short memory spans... where is all the comradery and/or selflessness this whole country displayed on and/or immediately after 911?

there is NO human being capable of getting thru this life doing EVERYTHING on his/her own! there is no i, in "we the people" and/or team. moreover, until we get back on the "right track" and support one another, rather than pushing others down to "rise to the top", we will continue down this very dark and dangerous path. furthermore, we need to go after those dirty, filthy, S@#MBAGS, who set out to take we the people "to the cleaners". stand up and insist that those who created and unethically profited from this mess are held fully accountability, for their evil, greedy deeds!!! wake up, smell the coffee and do something people or, life as you knew will be just a distant memory!
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Old 01-14-2009, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,478 posts, read 52,784,137 times
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The problem with oil is simply that it is expensive to find but cheap to mine, transport and refine. Why does oil in Texas cost as much as oil from Saudi Arabia or Venezuela? Why does Saudi Oil sell for so much more than it costs to pump the stuff? Why are most of the Iraqi fields still undeveloped? Why is the US Naval reserve field in Alaska still unexplored?

I suspect that last summer's price run up was part of a world wide marketing experiment to determine an actual price/demand curve for oil. They have the data so they are now returning to an optimal price just high enough to maximize profits while low enough to under price alternates. The people doing this work must have paid attention when they were at Ivy League business schools. Letting an actual market develop would be far too risky in the energy business.
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Old 01-14-2009, 08:42 AM
 
13,011 posts, read 19,215,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostdestroyedlife View Post
let me guess, you voted for Bush and your profited from oil as well as other things from his administration
Ohhhkay, thank you for contributing to the discussion. You can return to the politics forum now. You can post on how Bush caused the last earthquake or something.

Now to address more reasonable posts - TheBigR and BrunoRS - no argument that speculation played a big part. But I don't agree there was any conspiracy in the speculators. There is no speculator "star chamber" or illuminati running the scenes. Speculation impacts the market without any consipiracy. Look at the housing market and certain stock market crashes (caused by short selling, etc). They go above and beyond demand trends, but still reflect perceived demand.

Most oil investors, including the speculation market, are big mutual and index funds. Oil is also used as hedge funds and future contracts. Again demand or perceived demand is at the core. If they see prices go up, a company will lock in prices for several years, thus driving prices up even more, until it eventually tops out based on changing market situations. Now, with all this said, I don't argue that the government can carefully implement some legislation to lower the impact of price swings due to speculation.

Finally, with the speculation argument: Why would this speculator "star chamber" alow the prices to finally go so low? Speculators and the oil industry are now losing billions as the forces of supply and demand finally filter down to the market.
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Old 01-14-2009, 09:15 AM
 
Location: NW MT
1,436 posts, read 2,981,349 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Ohhhkay, thank you for contributing to the discussion. You can return to the politics forum now. You can post on how Bush caused the last earthquake or something.

Now to address more reasonable posts - TheBigR and BrunoRS - no argument that speculation played a big part. But I don't agree there was any conspiracy in the speculators. There is no speculator "star chamber" or illuminati running the scenes. Speculation impacts the market without any consipiracy. Look at the housing market and certain stock market crashes (caused by short selling, etc). They go above and beyond demand trends, but still reflect perceived demand.

Most oil investors, including the speculation market, are big mutual and index funds. Oil is also used as hedge funds and future contracts. Again demand or perceived demand is at the core. If they see prices go up, a company will lock in prices for several years, thus driving prices up even more, until it eventually tops out based on changing market situations. Now, with all this said, I don't argue that the government can carefully implement some legislation to lower the impact of price swings due to speculation.

Finally, with the speculation argument: Why would this speculator "star chamber" alow the prices to finally go so low? Speculators and the oil industry are now losing billions as the forces of supply and demand finally filter down to the market.
The big index and mutual funds knew exactly what they were doing. This makes it a conspiracy in my book if that's what you want to call it ! I call it price fixing of sort. Is there a difference ?

Granted, oil has a base line price driven by supply and demand, not denying that. But it hasn't traded on or near to that base line in year as it should. It is being manipulated more so than not and I think those that don't believe this are just blind to it !

Lets not forget (as Bruno_rs mentioned) oil is an essential to our lives like water and air today... the only difference is this essential is traded on a market ! What makes anyone naive enough to think it wouldn't be manipulated more so than not or that conspiracies wouldn't form around it ? Hell, our monetary system is another one of those essentials and there is never a moment that goes by that conspiracies aren't being born, conceived and growing to take advantage of it ! Economic bubbles are just that !
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Old 01-14-2009, 10:46 AM
 
48,509 posts, read 86,113,030 times
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Well demand is low and gas has dropped alot. Seems to confoirm that demand and supply determines the price more than most comodities.
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Old 01-14-2009, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,478 posts, read 52,784,137 times
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Gasoline prices just went up about 8% in southern New Hampshire. I guess they are just working the curve and figure sales will not drop very much if the price is a bit higher. If they raise the price 8% but loose 3% of sales they are still making 5% more money. That is 5% of a fairly large number.
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Old 01-14-2009, 12:18 PM
 
13,011 posts, read 19,215,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
Well demand is low and gas has dropped alot. Seems to confoirm that demand and supply determines the price more than most comodities.
Yeah that's what I don't get. I would think the widespread drop in price (less any regional and local changes) during the last 4 months would be clear proof of supply and demand influencing the price of oil. If prices didn't go down after the crash a few months ago however, then I would tend to go with the conspiracists...
you can't win!
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