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Old 04-29-2009, 04:36 PM
 
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Was watching a CNBC documentary about GM collapsing. One of the things they brought up was how much the workers make. $28/hr!!! with lots of decent benefits. After the UAW bought them out it was moved down to $14/hr.

So I ask everyone, what do you think is a fair wage to be paying these auto workers?

I say start them off as independent contractors making 10/hr no benefits. Supervisors make 12/hr with benefits. Managers and highly skilled workers make 15/hr with benefits.

Even at those rates, people will be lined up around the block to work. Also Detroit has very low cost of living so making 10/hr is good money! The work they do isn't even hard. I saw one guy who all he did was install shocks into the car all day long. That is how the assembly line works - everyone is specialized to do one specific thing. It would take what? An hour to train someone to do that?

Thoughts?
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Old 04-29-2009, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Chino, CA
1,458 posts, read 3,054,966 times
Reputation: 555
Quote:
Originally Posted by killer2021 View Post
Was watching a CNBC documentary about GM collapsing. One of the things they brought up was how much the workers make. $28/hr!!! with lots of decent benefits. After the UAW bought them out it was moved down to $14/hr.

So I ask everyone, what do you think is a fair wage to be paying these auto workers?

I say start them off as independent contractors making 10/hr no benefits. Supervisors make 12/hr with benefits. Managers and highly skilled workers make 15/hr with benefits.

Even at those rates, people will be lined up around the block to work. Also Detroit has very low cost of living so making 10/hr is good money! The work they do isn't even hard. I saw one guy who all he did was install shocks into the car all day long. That is how the assembly line works - everyone is specialized to do one specific thing. It would take what? An hour to train someone to do that?

Thoughts?
Ok,
10/hr * 40 hrs/wk * 52 wks = 20,800k
12/hr * 40 hrs/wk * 52 wks = 24,960k

That is less than half of US Median Household Incomes and wages less than even some McDonald employees.

28/hr * 40 hrs/wk * 52 wks = 58,240k which is a little above US Median household incomes

So, what do you do? And how much do you make? I guess median household incomes need to go down right? If you push paper around, then you probably should be making 12/hr.

The problem isn't really that the workers make too much, it's more that the managers, upper management, CEOs, CFOs, and all the layers on top (which there are a lot of layers) make a whole lot more. Secondly, is the legacy costs of all the retirees and pensions. I don't think 28/hr is that big of a deal vs. the 100s of times more the executives make over the lowest paid employee.

-chuck22b
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Old 04-29-2009, 05:29 PM
Rei
 
Location: Los Angeles
494 posts, read 1,671,138 times
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Quote:
So I ask everyone, what do you think is a fair wage to be paying these auto workers?
According to US Census Bureau (Michigan QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau) per capita income in Michigan in 1999 was $22,168/yr. Assuming a 5% COLA, 2009 per capita income should be around $38,000/yr. There are 2080 work hours per week, so it's about $18.2, say $20/hr.

Don't forget that this is AVERAGE. Some make less and some more than that..
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Old 04-29-2009, 06:07 PM
 
Location: Rockland County New York
2,984 posts, read 5,424,553 times
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[quote=killer2021;8573569]Was watching a CNBC documentary about GM collapsing. One of the things they brought up was how much the workers make. $28/hr!!! with lots of decent benefits. After the UAW bought them out it was moved down to $14/hr.

So I ask everyone, what do you think is a fair wage to be paying these auto workers?

I say start them off as independent contractors making 10/hr no benefits. Supervisors make 12/hr with benefits. Managers and highly skilled workers make 15/hr with benefits.

Even at those rates, people will be lined up around the block to work. Also Detroit has very low cost of living so making 10/hr is good money! The work they do isn't even hard. I saw one guy who all he did was install shocks into the car all day long. That is how the assembly line works - everyone is specialized to do one specific thing. It would take what? An hour to train someone to do that?

Thoughts?[/QUO

My thoughts? $10 an hour is living close to the poverty line. Maybe that idea is great for CEOs and wealthy investors but for the American worker is spells poverty.TE]
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Old 04-29-2009, 06:11 PM
 
Location: Mid-Atlantic
1,820 posts, read 4,156,965 times
Reputation: 1911
This subject has been gone over and over... there are some strong opinions out there-including mine.
I will say, yes,they make WAY to much money for most of their required jobs. It isn't just the salary that gets me though...
In today's economy,these people are STILL GETTING BONUSES,they are still working OT,they are still getting put in job banks (and people will argue that this is no longer true) however,we know people who work for the UAW in Western,NY who say otherwise.
The UAW needs to concede much more on things,sorry,if everyone else today has to make concessions on their salaries,take furlough days,etc... why shouldn't they?
People who worked for companies for 30,40+ years are being asked to give up their retirement benefits,but yet the UAW always seems to win this fight?
DELPHI has been in bankruptcy for what? 3 years or so now and they keep getting extensions ,no one there is looking for a new job but yet they have basically had THREE YEARS warning that something may be happening and they are living their lives as though nothing is happening to this economy ?
The people that we know are taking vacations,buying $500 vacum cleaners,doing home renovations,etc.. all in recent months... They say things "are great at DELPHI" .
I am sorry,but no one working on a production line should be making anywhere near what they make. I know that people will come back and say that I am obviously for the white collared worker,that I think that people with college educations should make more money,etc...
and I will say "yes,absolutely" when we tell our children over and over again how important it is to go to college,get a good education. When I know that my husband worked so hard to put himself through college and graduate school on his own! his parents couldn't afford to help him.I worked 2 jobs to help with the expenses in addition to my own college loans and yet he has been told that they will not receive a bonus this year,there is a salary freeze,no one will receive increases this year and people have been let go?
I don't feel sorry for the UAW employees at all,they should thank their lucky stars I guess right now for the Union because they are obviously a lot better off today than most.

I apologize for the rant,but yes,to answer the OP's ?? they make to much money-way to much money.
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Old 04-29-2009, 09:54 PM
 
327 posts, read 886,557 times
Reputation: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYMD67 View Post
This subject has been gone over and over... there are some strong opinions out there-including mine.
I will say, yes,they make WAY to much money for most of their required jobs. It isn't just the salary that gets me though...
In today's economy,these people are STILL GETTING BONUSES,they are still working OT,they are still getting put in job banks (and people will argue that this is no longer true) however,we know people who work for the UAW in Western,NY who say otherwise.
The UAW needs to concede much more on things,sorry,if everyone else today has to make concessions on their salaries,take furlough days,etc... why shouldn't they?
People who worked for companies for 30,40+ years are being asked to give up their retirement benefits,but yet the UAW always seems to win this fight?
DELPHI has been in bankruptcy for what? 3 years or so now and they keep getting extensions ,no one there is looking for a new job but yet they have basically had THREE YEARS warning that something may be happening and they are living their lives as though nothing is happening to this economy ?
The people that we know are taking vacations,buying $500 vacum cleaners,doing home renovations,etc.. all in recent months... They say things "are great at DELPHI" .
I am sorry,but no one working on a production line should be making anywhere near what they make. I know that people will come back and say that I am obviously for the white collared worker,that I think that people with college educations should make more money,etc...
and I will say "yes,absolutely" when we tell our children over and over again how important it is to go to college,get a good education. When I know that my husband worked so hard to put himself through college and graduate school on his own! his parents couldn't afford to help him.I worked 2 jobs to help with the expenses in addition to my own college loans and yet he has been told that they will not receive a bonus this year,there is a salary freeze,no one will receive increases this year and people have been let go?
I don't feel sorry for the UAW employees at all,they should thank their lucky stars I guess right now for the Union because they are obviously a lot better off today than most.

I apologize for the rant,but yes,to answer the OP's ?? they make to much money-way to much money.
Please take the time to research and post facts. You state that you are college educated. Remember all those trips to the library to write your research papers with cited factual information? The UAW auto production workers will not be receiving bonuses this year, they are not working overtime (Many plants will be shut down for up to nine weeks this summer (GM). They will receive approximately 70% pay with unemployment benefits) and hourly pay rates have been cut, the job banks are gone. I am not familiar with conditions for the Delphi UAW automotive supply parts workers. It does seem very strange to me that they are working overtime and getting bonuses as they try to emerge from bankruptcy, but I honestly cannot say and have no source to quote. I will try to research this. In the meantime, please post your links instead of heresay. I suggest that you read the Detroit Free Press for your auto news.
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Old 04-29-2009, 10:00 PM
 
3,853 posts, read 12,034,760 times
Reputation: 2522
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck22b View Post
Ok,
10/hr * 40 hrs/wk * 52 wks = 20,800k
12/hr * 40 hrs/wk * 52 wks = 24,960k

That is less than half of US Median Household Incomes and wages less than even some McDonald employees.

28/hr * 40 hrs/wk * 52 wks = 58,240k which is a little above US Median household incomes

So, what do you do? And how much do you make? I guess median household incomes need to go down right? If you push paper around, then you probably should be making 12/hr.

The problem isn't really that the workers make too much, it's more that the managers, upper management, CEOs, CFOs, and all the layers on top (which there are a lot of layers) make a whole lot more. Secondly, is the legacy costs of all the retirees and pensions. I don't think 28/hr is that big of a deal vs. the 100s of times more the executives make over the lowest paid employee.

-chuck22b
The executives make peanuts in the big picture of things. Wagner making 15 million per year is nothing. If he gets 5 million bonus, once again that is nothing in the big picture.

Quote:
GM's hourly employee costs in 2003 were $18.4 billion, including its so-called legacy costs. Last year, hourly costs fell to $7.6 billion, and the company projects they can be further trimmed to $6.5 billion this year, and to $4.8 billion by 2012.
So if the executives take 90% paycut, no bonus they'll save what? 100 million? but if you cut the UAW worker's cost by 50%, you'll save 10 billion+. Cutting executive salary won't save the company but cutting UAW salary WILL save the company. Plus they've got to cut off all the excess capacity. They can't be making 4,000,000 cars per annum when their demand is only 2,000,000 per annum.
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Old 04-29-2009, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Mid-Atlantic
1,820 posts, read 4,156,965 times
Reputation: 1911
Quote:
Originally Posted by smellykat View Post
Please take the time to research and post facts. You state that you are college educated. Remember all those trips to the library to write your research papers with cited factual information? The UAW auto production workers will not be receiving bonuses this year, they are not working overtime (Many plants will be shut down for up to nine weeks this summer (GM). They will receive approximately 70% pay with unemployment benefits) and hourly pay rates have been cut, the job banks are gone. I am not familiar with conditions for the Delphi UAW automotive supply parts workers. It does seem very strange to me that they are working overtime and getting bonuses as they try to emerge from bankruptcy, but I honestly cannot say and have no source to quote. I will try to research this. In the meantime, please post your links instead of heresay. I suggest that you read the Detroit Free Press for your auto news.
I was really only referring to the Delphi UAW ,I do not and can not speak for any other. I know for a fact that the employees in Western NY are working OT and getting bonuses. In fact, the UAW has a website with a rumor roundup on it that has a Q&A section and people have asked about their bonuses this year... they are indeed getting them.
We know several people who work in Western NY and I can tell you that they are not feeling the ill effects that others are feeling. They are indeed saying that "they are not being hurt at all by this shortfall in the economy or the auto industry" ... we had long conversations with them this past weekend. Stunned as we were, we don't work in the industry so assume they know best-right?

Actually,I just found the Q&A section and here is the one question I was referring to:
April 10, 2009

Q: When will we get our bonus? Is it in May sometime?


A: All production employees who hold seniority as of April 27, 2009 will receive the 3% performance bonus in their paycheck for weekending May 24th, 2009. That paycheck is payable on Thursday May 28, 2009.

So,they are indeed getting some type of bonus.
Again, I do not work for the UAW and do not claim to know everything,but I know what others tell me and I know what I read...
Yes,we all have heard that GM is shutting down plants this Summer,but you know what? at least they are getting SOME pay out of it.
We know people who are being told they must take unpaid vacay time,furlough days,etc.. they aren't getting paid for the time they are having to take off and they aren't getting their performance bonus,etc...
So I stand to my facts that I do know,that yes,when you add their bonus pays ,their vacay days (in which they receive to many of as well! I mean honestly-they get off holidays like banks do!), they are making to much money.
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Old 04-29-2009, 10:37 PM
 
Location: Chino, CA
1,458 posts, read 3,054,966 times
Reputation: 555
Quote:
Originally Posted by killer2021 View Post
The executives make peanuts in the big picture of things. Wagner making 15 million per year is nothing. If he gets 5 million bonus, once again that is nothing in the big picture.



So if the executives take 90% paycut, no bonus they'll save what? 100 million? but if you cut the UAW worker's cost by 50%, you'll save 10 billion+. Cutting executive salary won't save the company but cutting UAW salary WILL save the company. Plus they've got to cut off all the excess capacity. They can't be making 4,000,000 cars per annum when their demand is only 2,000,000 per annum.
I agree with the capacity issue. The demand simply isn't there. As far as pay cuts... why not a pay cut for both executives AND UAW workers.

As for 10/12 an hour. At those wages, they might as well work for Mickey Ds. I think ~24 would be closer to but slightly higher than Michigan average incomes as someone above mentioned. That would be close to a 15% pay cut which could be reasonable vs. over 64% with your 10/hr proposal.

Also, the cut on executive pay would probably save more than 100 million... looking at Hoovers, GM has 111 employees in the "Executive" ranks at their Michigan Location ranging from a few dozen Presidents, VPs, Directors, Executive VP, Executive President, Executive Director, Group President, Senior Director, Senior VP, etc. etc. layer on layer of bloated juicy fat. Mmmm mmm yummy!
http://www.hoovers.com/free/co/people.xhtml?ID=10640 (broken link)


-chuck22b

Last edited by chuck22b; 04-29-2009 at 10:52 PM..
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Old 04-29-2009, 10:44 PM
 
327 posts, read 886,557 times
Reputation: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYMD67 View Post
I was really only referring to the Delphi UAW ,I do not and can not speak for any other. I know for a fact that the employees in Western NY are working OT and getting bonuses. In fact, the UAW has a website with a rumor roundup on it that has a Q&A section and people have asked about their bonuses this year... they are indeed getting them.
We know several people who work in Western NY and I can tell you that they are not feeling the ill effects that others are feeling. They are indeed saying that "they are not being hurt at all by this shortfall in the economy or the auto industry" ... we had long conversations with them this past weekend. Stunned as we were, we don't work in the industry so assume they know best-right?

Actually,I just found the Q&A section and here is the one question I was referring to:
April 10, 2009

Q: When will we get our bonus? Is it in May sometime?

A: All production employees who hold seniority as of April 27, 2009 will receive the 3% performance bonus in their paycheck for weekending May 24th, 2009. That paycheck is payable on Thursday May 28, 2009.

So,they are indeed getting some type of bonus.
Again, I do not work for the UAW and do not claim to know everything,but I know what others tell me and I know what I read...
Yes,we all have heard that GM is shutting down plants this Summer,but you know what? at least they are getting SOME pay out of it.
We know people who are being told they must take unpaid vacay time,furlough days,etc.. they aren't getting paid for the time they are having to take off and they aren't getting their performance bonus,etc...
So I stand to my facts that I do know,that yes,when you add their bonus pays ,their vacay days (in which they receive to many of as well! I mean honestly-they get off holidays like banks do!), they are making to much money.
Could you post the link for the information you posted or just state the source? I'd like to peruse it. Also, you repeatedly state that the Delphi UAW automotive supply parts worker is making WAY too much money. What is their hourly rate? Funny, you mentioned the UAW holiday schedule similar to the banks. NPR News reported that Goldman Sachs has 900 employees that make $1 million annually! Kinda makes the overly paid UAW worker's pay rate pale in comparison, don't you agree?
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