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Interestingly, my students find things difficult that I found a piece of cake. For example, gas laws. IMO, all you have to do is look at what you have, see which equation your data fits into and solve (this is true for a lot of physics). My students freeze when they have to pick the equation. They can't choose. I remember thinking Hess's law was difficult when I learned it but there's a pattern to Hess's law (I can't follow a pattern unless I understand the pattern). My students can follow that pattern without issue. So they do better on Hess's law than gas laws.
I've never understood why US schools don't just look at other books and cirriculum at the start of the year.
If you take that chemistry problem X/298k=35 L/500k. Surely they solve ratios in Singapore, Europe, Asia. How do they do it?
Wouldn't that spark some debate or curiosity here, even among our worst students, the perennial losers?
I remember my brother in highschool, from about 1998-2002, had a heck of a time in math. I think we wear students down here, repeating things that don't work.
I think results in highschool would go way up if they cut the course load to only 3 or 4 classes a semester. More concentrated effort. Not necessarily more work. 6 is too much. Plus after school acitivites? Plus work? It's too much for 15-18 year olds.
I've never understood why US schools don't just look at other books and cirriculum at the start of the year.
If you take that chemistry problem X/298k=35 L/500k. Surely they solve ratios in Singapore, Europe, Asia. How do they do it?
Wouldn't that spark some debate or curiosity here, even among our worst students, the perennial losers?
I remember my brother in highschool, from about 1998-2002, had a heck of a time in math. I think we wear students down here, repeating things that don't work.
I think results in highschool would go way up if they cut the course load to only 3 or 4 classes a semester. More concentrated effort. Not necessarily more work. 6 is too much. Plus after school acitivites? Plus work? It's too much for 15-18 year olds.
I would agree IF we started holding our students responsible for remembering what they learned before. What kills us is we don't do this. We assume they've forgotten, repeat the material and them not remembering becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Why remember when teachers just repeat? As I said, we recently had a lab where my students had to go from volume of water to mass of water and I'm not sure I had one who remembered that the property of density lets you do this or that the definition of a gram is the mass of one ml of water. I had dozens of students crying "unfair question" because I didn't tell them before they did the lab that they needed the density of water. I had hoped they'd figure that one out on their own.
I posted earlier that I'd like to see year round schools with longer periods and trimesters with a reduction in classes taken at one time. I do think we need more face time BUT more than that, we need the right to hold our students accountable for what they learn. As long as I'm not allowed to assume they actually know the prerequisite material for the class, we're peddling fast on a stationary bike. Lots of wheels spinning but we're getting nowhere. NOTHING changes until you change this. More time in class would just become more time in prison to our kids. More time to be at war with the teacher. More frustration for the teacher.
Why won't we look elsewhere? Arrogance? Because we believe our children are different. Which, BTW, they are because we believe they are. We believe our children need something special because they are special. We balk at the idea that our kids should be taught like kids elsewhere in the world. We're convinced that we can do it better....yet we fail....miserably and REFUSE to learn from systems that educate kids well BECAUSE they hold the child responsible for learning while we hold our children responsible for nothing. They are, after all, children and children are to be coddled. We'd have to stop coddling our children and we won'd do that. The heart of the problem is we worship the child and we're convinced our kids are better than they are. We suffer from "Not MY child" syndrome. So we blame the teacher, the school, the administration, whoever....when, often, the blame belongs on the child. Hence I get beat up over failing students yet the vast majority are failing because they don't turn in their work. I'm asked, have you called home? Have you talked to them? What have you done to fix this? IMO, the proper thing to do to fix this is let them fail. If they fail once, they won't do it again. Me calling home and hounding them to turn things in only reinforces that it's not THEIR job to make sure THEIR homework is done. It's mine.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 05-14-2012 at 03:46 AM..
Here's an example. Problems in chemistry often look something like this X/298K = 35.0L/500.K If I, simply, multiply both sides of this equation by 298 to isolate the variable, I lose half of my students. They have to cross multiply and then divide to get 500K*X = 35.0L *298 first and then divide by 500K to isolate the variable. If it looks like a ratio, most of my students MUST cross multiply and then divide to solve the problem. I was two years into teaching before I realized that I was confusing them by just taking one step to clear the variable. Now I do this problem in two steps to avoid the confusion. They were taught to solve ratios by cross multiplying and then dividing and that is all they can do. They can apply the algorythm. Period.
I agree with your other points, but wanted to address this because I taught Algebra.
It sounds as if your students never got the idea that equations stay the same as long as you do the same thing to both sides of the equation. Part of this comes from using computer software that only allows us to isolate the variable on the left side of the equation instead of allowing whatever works best.
The other part of the problem is teaching single ways of solving equations in order instead of allowing whatever operation you want to do first.
Unfortunately, if you try to teach the way this should be taught you confuse kids who had prealgebra with strict methods where the teacher did not allow them to do the problems in any way other than the method they were shown.
I know my son is like you - he has to understand the why before he does problems. He can still make errors, but usually he can figure out the errors because he knows why they happened and he can derive the formulas instead of having them memorized.
Using your logic, then we also need to fire most doctors since obesity is on the rise, diabetes, as well has the number of deaths from heart diesease. What gets me is that no one wants to admit the true reason why schools are failing.
As a fourth grade teacher, I don't get students who are all at grade level when they enter my classroom. In fact, only 10% of my 34 students are at or above grade level when the enter my class in the beginning of the school year. So guess what, that means that 90% of my 34 students are one, two, and some times as three grade levels below my grade in reading, writing, and math skills.
Most teachers are not teaching students who are as prepared, motivated, and ready for the subject or grade level, yet teachers work their miracles by helping students at least have access to the curriculum that most students can't come close to mastering. Let me just say this too. The United States in comparison to Japan, tests every child, including your special ed and mentally challenged students. A country like Japan doesn't, and in fact, they test mainly their brightest students. So in comparison, if we only tested our brighest students, I think we wouldn't look as bad.
The CTA, as hard as this is for you too accept, is in the buisness strictly to protect a teacher's salary and benefits. They don't evaluate nor decide who is hired in a school district. Now if you are very concerned about firing incompetent teachers, I hope you are just as concerned as I am when doctors can get away with letting their patients become diabetic, obese, and chronically ill as a result of receiving poor health care as well.
Again, teachers are bashed when kids don't learn, and yet 90% of the kids who enter my grade are not even ready and prepared to do my grade's work. Yet when those same students score far below basic and below basis on our state's standardized test, I am blamed for being an imcompetent ineffective teacher. I get what I get, and my parents are sending me their best, be it 90% below grade level and the 10% at or above grade level. If you have a solution to how I can get those 90% at grade level within a year please offer me some support and help.
I certainly hope you do not attempt to teach logic because you fail to begin to understand it.
It is not a doctors job to teach or to allow their patients to "get away with" being obese or diabetic or chronically ill.
It is a doctor’s job to treat these people after the fact.
By contrast a teachers job is to teach. It is not the parent’s job, it is not the student’s job, it is the teacher’s job.
If teachers were anywhere near as good at teaching as they are at making excuses for their lack of performance we would not be having this discussion.
The CTA is in the business of politics, and is the most powerful lobby in Sacramento. That is a fact. They use, what should be, illegal influence (bribery) with lawmakers to pass laws and to enact contracts that turn schools into Country Clubs where teachers can get away with substandard results, extraordinary vacations, employment for life regardless of competency, and guaranteed pensions and health care that no one in the private sector could even dream of.
The ironic thing is if they just did the job we hired them to do, we would not even begrudge them their extraordinary benefits. But the fact is they do not.
In addition, by proxy of their ultra powerful union, they prevent parents from placing their children in private schools by fighting any type of voucher system that would make such a move possible for middle and lower class families.
Of course for the rich, it is possible, and in fact we now find in our country that only the rich can access real quality education. You will have to look long and hard to find children of the upper class subjected to the mediocrity of public schools, and there is a reason for that.
The working class must settle for putting their children in poorly run government schools with dismal results which ensures another generation of ignorant workers that can be easily exploited by the corporations they will work for.
"The CTA is in the business of politics, and is the most powerful lobby in Sacramento. That is a fact. They use, what should be, illegal influence (bribery) with lawmakers to pass laws and to enact contracts that turn schools into Country Clubs where teachers can get away with substandard results, extraordinary vacations, employment for life regardless of competency, and guaranteed pensions and health care that no one in the private sector could even dream of."
Can you post any evidence of anything you claimed? Show us which schools have been turned into Country Clubs, tell us how the CTA allows teachers to get away with substandard results, compare and contrast teachers pensions with those of administrators, which don't have unions, compare and contrast student achievement of states that have no teachers unions with those states that do, and explain why those non union states are doing worse than states with teacher's unions, if that is the case. TIA......
The CTA is in the business of politics, and is the most powerful lobby in Sacramento. That is a fact. They use, what should be, illegal influence (bribery) with lawmakers to pass laws and to enact contracts that turn schools into Country Clubs where teachers can get away with substandard results, extraordinary vacations, employment for life regardless of competency, and guaranteed pensions and health care that no one in the private sector could even dream of.
I find it outrageous that conservatives get all bent out of shape when a labor union or professional association lobbies a legislative body effectively, yet when a group like the Chamber of Commerce or the National Manufacturer's Association does so the stock reply is "they are exercising their First Amendment rights". GMAFB... The real issue here is simply if firebrand conservatives had their way there would be a few people at the top with all the money and everyone else in this country would work for peanuts. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, my friend.
Do you see your hypocrisy here Jim?
Quote:
The ironic thing is if they just did the job we hired them to do, we would not even begrudge them their extraordinary benefits. But the fact is they do not.
No, you wouldn't. You'd constantly be looking for ways to whittle down your taxes and teacher compensation. You'd be looking for an "economy here" and an "economy there". The Teacher's Union wasn't some kind of an evil plot to bankrupt states and taxpayers. The Teacher's Union and other unions came to exist because of abuses in the workplace. I personally doubt you are old enough to have any comprehension of what I'm talking about. However, teachers used to be the most underpaid people in the country. Fifty years ago, local school boards took for granted the notion that a large segment of women would become teachers no matter how little they were paid because opportunities for women were limited. The term "exploitation" is an accurate definition of what occurred. There were other issues besides compensation as well. It was considered "indecent" in many parts of the country to allow a pregnant school teacher to teach after she became visibly pregnant, so she was required to take a leave of absence.
I personally think any union can overdo it and I sometimes disagree with individual decisions made by unions. However, the right to bargain collectively is a critical right that all Americans should have. However, the reasons the abuses I've spoken about above were rectified is largely because of the power that teachers were able to obtain by forming a union or professional association.
Please describe for us the "illegal influence" that the teacher's union is using. Specify the criminal laws they are breaking by numeric sections of state or federal laws. If you don't answer, you will be held to account. I will point out that you are "full of it".
Quote:
In addition, by proxy of their ultra powerful union, they prevent parents from placing their children in private schools by fighting any type of voucher system that would make such a move possible for middle and lower class families.
Of course for the rich, it is possible, and in fact we now find in our country that only the rich can access real quality education. You will have to look long and hard to find children of the upper class subjected to the mediocrity of public schools, and there is a reason for that.
Jim, Jim, Jim. Don't you know that opposition to vouchers comes from other places besides teachers and the teacher's union?? Get a clue. I've never taught in my life and I oppose vouchers. Why? The public schools in my area are pretty good. I don't want to take resources that could be going to these schools and let parents hand them over to unproven, and in some cases brand new private schools that have no track record when it comes to educating children. Here in Utah (which is one of the largest bastions of conservatism in this country) we voted down a voucher law by a vote of 2-1. The thinking here is that our schools are good and we don't want to take scarce resources from them.
I realize this whole voucher thing is a "sacred cow" to some people. Its still a bad idea. People who want to send their kids to private school may do so. They just have to come up with their own money to do so which is the way it ought to be. Your wonder voucher idea is full of flaws. The best private schools will always be out of reach for the poor even with vouchers. Their tuition will always be more than the amount of the voucher that could be given to a poor family. Its called "smoke and mirrors", Jim.
Quote:
The working class must settle for putting their children in poorly run government schools with dismal results which ensures another generation of ignorant workers that can be easily exploited by the corporations they will work for.
Got any evidence for this little bit of hyperbole?
I find it outrageous that conservatives get all bent out of shape when a labor union or professional association lobbies a legislative body effectively, yet when a group like the Chamber of Commerce or the National Manufacturer's Association does so the stock reply is "they are exercising their First Amendment rights". GMAFB... The real issue here is simply if firebrand conservatives had their way there would be a few people at the top with all the money and everyone else in this country would work for peanuts. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, my friend.
Do you see your hypocrisy here Jim?
What are you talking about? Do you know what the hell you are talking about? Obviously you do not.
To correct you idiotic assumption, I am not a conservative. In fact I consistently rail against the corporations on this forum and the elite who control them usurping power and control away from the citizens.
The difference is I realize that none of what they do would be possible if we had an educated populace. Not only have they taken control of all three branches of government, they have also taken control of the educational system and keeping an ignorant working class is fundamental to their ability to remain in control.
To say the educational system is against corporations and the elite while perpetuating the system that enables its success what is truly ironic. The educational system is not the advisory of the elite, it is their ally.
Quote:
I personally think any union can overdo it and I sometimes disagree with individual decisions made by unions. However, the right to bargain collectively is a critical right that all Americans should have. However, the reasons the abuses I've spoken about above were rectified is largely because of the power that teachers were able to obtain by forming a union or professional association.
Please describe for us the "illegal influence" that the teacher's union is using. Specify the criminal laws they are breaking by numeric sections of state or federal laws. If you don't answer, you will be held to account. I will point out that you are "full of it".
Again you allow your assumptions to overide your intelect. At no point did I say I was anti union. I completly support the right of collective barganing. What I do not support is bribery by corporations and unions in the form of millions of dollars in campaign contributions which usurps control of politicians from the citizens. As far as quoting state or federal laws broken, it is none of those. What law has been broken is the letter and spirit of the Constitution by way of the Supreme Court ruling that corporations and PAC's have the rights of citizens.
Quote:
Jim, Jim, Jim. Don't you know that opposition to vouchers comes from other places besides teachers and the teacher's union?? Get a clue. I've never taught in my life and I oppose vouchers. Why? The public schools in my area are pretty good. I don't want to take resources that could be going to these schools and let parents hand them over to unproven, and in some cases brand new private schools that have no track record when it comes to educating children. Here in Utah (which is one of the largest bastions of conservatism in this country) we voted down a voucher law by a vote of 2-1. The thinking here is that our schools are good and we don't want to take scarce resources from them.
I realize this whole voucher thing is a "sacred cow" to some people. Its still a bad idea. People who want to send their kids to private school may do so. They just have to come up with their own money to do so which is the way it ought to be. Your wonder voucher idea is full of flaws. The best private schools will always be out of reach for the poor even with vouchers. Their tuition will always be more than the amount of the voucher that could be given to a poor family. Its called "smoke and mirrors", Jim.
So you are a better judge of the type of education your neighbors need to provide for their children than the parents themselves. It must be wonderful to have the kind of uber- intelligence that is necessary to make a decision like that.
The truth is that you support the very system of education that is causing the US to degenerate further and further every year. The kind of system where only the wealthy can access quality education and where the poor are kept subservient by an educational system that fails to educate.
The freedom to choose has been taken from the citizens by bureaucrats, politicians, and corporations in order to dictate to the working class the state mandated propaganda that they want the public to be indoctrinated with. And you sir, are serving the wealthy elite and the corporations by supporting the status quo.
Of course for the rich, it is possible, and in fact we now find in our country that only the rich can access real quality education. You will have to look long and hard to find children of the upper class subjected to the mediocrity of public schools, and there is a reason for that.
The working class must settle for putting their children in poorly run government schools with dismal results which ensures another generation of ignorant workers that can be easily exploited by the corporations they will work for.
The strongest factor in student performance is socioeconomics. The socioeconomic factor will give you the strongest prediction of the success or failure of a population of students. Of course the wealthier families are better educated and send their kids to private school go to school. While private schools can shed the riff-raff or kick out any trouble makers. Public school have to educate the all kids.
A private school with a majority of white, English speaking kids do better than a public school? Duh, of course they do. But it doesn't have better teachers than a public school. I'm not saying public schools are perfect but it's the most diverse & encompassing school system in the world. That makes it a difficult system to teach in.
I've never understood why US schools don't just look at other books and cirriculum at the start of the year.
If you take that chemistry problem X/298k=35 L/500k. Surely they solve ratios in Singapore, Europe, Asia. How do they do it?
Wouldn't that spark some debate or curiosity here, even among our worst students, the perennial losers?
I remember my brother in highschool, from about 1998-2002, had a heck of a time in math. I think we wear students down here, repeating things that don't work.
I think results in highschool would go way up if they cut the course load to only 3 or 4 classes a semester. More concentrated effort. Not necessarily more work. 6 is too much. Plus after school acitivites? Plus work? It's too much for 15-18 year olds.
Regarding your bolded statement: That is why you need teachers who understand their material in depth. A teacher who understands can find other ways to present the material.
I agree with your other points, but wanted to address this because I taught Algebra.
It sounds as if your students never got the idea that equations stay the same as long as you do the same thing to both sides of the equation. Part of this comes from using computer software that only allows us to isolate the variable on the left side of the equation instead of allowing whatever works best.
The other part of the problem is teaching single ways of solving equations in order instead of allowing whatever operation you want to do first.
Unfortunately, if you try to teach the way this should be taught you confuse kids who had prealgebra with strict methods where the teacher did not allow them to do the problems in any way other than the method they were shown.
I know my son is like you - he has to understand the why before he does problems. He can still make errors, but usually he can figure out the errors because he knows why they happened and he can derive the formulas instead of having them memorized.
I agree with you in theory but I find that if I don't pick a method (chemistry is just math with beakers) and stick with it, I lose over half of my class. Few of my students can handle seeing two ways to do the same thing and the ones who can aren't the ones who need an alternate way.
I needed things explained to me. Most of my high school teachers did not understand the material they taught well enough to do that. I had a handfull and those are the teachers I remember. The others blended into the woodwork. I survived their classes and managed to graduate.
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