Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-23-2014, 09:50 AM
 
Location: San Francisco born/raised - Las Vegas
2,821 posts, read 2,113,275 times
Reputation: 1905

Advertisements

Hmmm . . . If true, did the said teacher think that the drinking would go unreported?

Some people are simply clueless.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-23-2014, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Middle America
37,409 posts, read 53,593,150 times
Reputation: 53073
I had a high school science teacher who was in his first teaching job out of college, and obviously still in his college party boy days, and had clearly developed a problem. He would drink from a "water bottle" throughout the day, and be a mess by his afternoon classes...turned out to be straight vodka. He wasn't retained a second year.

Sad part is, he was a pretty good teacher. I hope he got help.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-23-2014, 01:17 PM
 
24,488 posts, read 41,150,886 times
Reputation: 12920
Quote:
Originally Posted by skelaki View Post
Sounds like a great school. Also sounds like a great reason to modify tenure.
What sounds like a great reason to modify tenure? Tenure doesn't protect teachers who break the law.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-23-2014, 01:45 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
13,520 posts, read 22,137,817 times
Reputation: 20235
Quote:
Originally Posted by John1960 View Post
Drinking in front of 5th graders at home? No problem (if you’re doing it responsibly). Drinking in front of 5th graders in a 5 th grade classroom? Problem. Drinking in front of 5th graders in a 5th grade classroom when you’re a 5th grade teacher? Big problem, as KENS 5 reports.

5th grade teacher drinks beer in classroom, everyone gets upset

Some people just hate to drink alone.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-23-2014, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles County, CA
29,094 posts, read 26,017,688 times
Reputation: 6128
She should have drank her beer out of a thermos.

The big problem Harrier sees is that she didn't share with the class.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-23-2014, 06:06 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,551,149 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by germaine2626 View Post
Thank you for the great post.

When I was getting my principal license, years and years ago, one of the professors shocked the class of future administrators with this statement, "Any principal can fire ANY teacher if they are just willing to put in the time and energy." He went on to say that even if the teacher was National Teacher of the Year and had dozens and dozens of exemplary teaching awards a principal, willing to observe and document every detail would be able to get them fired. Basically, the principal would observe hours per day and document every tiny mistake. It would end up with pages and pages and pages of slight errors, but would make it look like the teacher was totally incompetent. The professor wasn't advocating trying to fire good teachers but trying to let us know that "teachers with tenure can't be fired" is a totally fallacy.

Sadly, I have seen this happen in my own district. One of the teachers, who "rubbed the principal the wrong way" ended up with the principal in her classroom for two to three hours each and every school day. Although, she was an excellent teacher, under the constant stress and strain of the observations and critical remarks by the principal she started making small errors, which of course, were documented.

Luckily, for the teacher, the principal suddenly stopped the observations after about six months. It was theorized that the Union was able to convince the top administrators to have the principal stop or maybe the principal just got tired of spending 10 to 15 hours plus per week on this one project. By this time the teacher was under so much stress & constant anxiety that she had developed some health problems which took months to resolve

Unfortunately, you just described my situation. Only it's not hours a day. He just shows up unannounced several times a week and notes what I'm doing wrong at that moment. For example, we've had countless snow days and ACT prep days and mid winter break and I called on a student last week and couldn't immediately produce his name so I just pointed. We've only had 15 days of school since the semester started because of all the interruptions and I don't have everyone's name down yet (70% of my kids are new to me this semester). Unfortunately, his visits unnerve me because I start thinking "What am I doing wrong now" and it ends up becoming a self fulfilling prophecy that I slip up. I stammer, forget a name, something. I'm so tired of the stress I think I'm going to feel relieved if I get pink slipped in May. There are those who tell me to hang in there because he's blowing smoke and doesn't have enough on me to get me fired but he seems to think he does.

Another teacher described it this way: He said it's as if my principal has me in the bottom of a bucket and he puts every little thing I do wrong in the bucket and he's incapable of seeing me except through all those faults. It doesn't matter what I do right. That never makes it into the bucket.

Last year he observed me on what I would say was the second best lesson I gave all year. It was a grand slam home run. His criticisms? I didn't chit chat with the class at the beginning of the hour (I pointed out the bellwork on the board and told them class had begun), I didn't group my kids right for a group activity (they worked with their lab partners instead of me picking new groups) and I didn't deviate from my lesson plan. He says good teachers change their plan on the fly to adjust to the needs of the kids. I didn't change it because I didn't have to. This is something he brings up all the time. That I don't change my lesson plans on the fly but he misses that I don't need to. I've been doing this enough years that I can anticipate what the kids are going to need. Now if he'd seen me my first, second or even third year teaching, he would have seen lots of changing on the fly. My lessons were very rough around the edges back then.

I will not win because he holds all the cards and there isn't a darned thing I can do about it other than pray that denial of tenure doesn't end my teaching career. The problem I will face is explaining why my principal went to the effort to fire me. It really boils down to he threw me under the bus for the chance of hiring someone he liked better and when that fell through he couldn't take it back. He has to keep going down that path because otherwise he looks like a bully. He is a bully but if he makes me look bad enough he's the hero saving the school from me.

Unfortunately, I'm not on my A game anymore because of the stress this situation is causing. I still have great numbers but he just ignores those. What I don't have is requests into my classes. He told me last year that is the only thing that can save me. That, unfortunately, takes time. I've had several of my kids comment that they didn't know what they were going to do if they got the other teacher second semester but, to my knowledge, I don't think I've had anyone request into my class, officially. I think the kids see the other teacher and I as equivalent, which is not a bad thing except in the eyes of my principal. They have to like me better than him in order for me to stay.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-24-2014, 01:15 AM
 
1,180 posts, read 3,127,992 times
Reputation: 1791
Ivorytickler, I used to teach and am definitely not against tenure for teachers. That's why i said "modified."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-24-2014, 01:26 AM
 
24,488 posts, read 41,150,886 times
Reputation: 12920
Quote:
Originally Posted by skelaki View Post
Ivorytickler, I used to teach and am definitely not against tenure for teachers. That's why i said "modified."
Modified to what?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-24-2014, 02:09 AM
 
1,180 posts, read 3,127,992 times
Reputation: 1791
Why should it be for life? Why not, for example, make it for a specific period of time? Not something ridiculously short such as 2 years, but reasonable time period such as, for example 10 years. And have definite laws regarding legitimate reasons for non-renewal. And, at the same time, have the same tenure renewal rules apply to non-tenured teachers so that it would be more difficult to fire them for what amount to political and/or personality conflict reasons.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-24-2014, 03:10 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,551,149 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by skelaki View Post
Why should it be for life? Why not, for example, make it for a specific period of time? Not something ridiculously short such as 2 years, but reasonable time period such as, for example 10 years. And have definite laws regarding legitimate reasons for non-renewal. And, at the same time, have the same tenure renewal rules apply to non-tenured teachers so that it would be more difficult to fire them for what amount to political and/or personality conflict reasons.
I don't know where you are but in Michigan, it takes 5 years in a district to tenure and all tenure means is they have to show cause to fire you. While this year is my 6th year teaching, it's only my 4th in this district as my time in the charter school isn't counted by the state (which I don't get because the state wants charter schools). If I return next year, I will tenure at the end of the year unless I do something during the year that would cause them to fire me mid year. Before you tenure, they can terminate you at any time without giving a reason.

What needs to be modified here? All tenure means is I get due process, the chance to fix the problem if there is one and the district has to show cause to fire me. It's really no different than industry once you're off your probationary period. What needs to change?

Tenure is needed because of the absolute power principals hold. They pick and choose what to put in an evaluation. The only other people who watch me teach are the kids and they are biased. It's very easy for my principal to hand pick kids and parents who don't like me to build his case (and my principal has done an excellent job of this), whereas, it's considered unethical for me to try and enlist the help of students and teachers who do like me. They have to come forward on their own to defend me. I have no defense against anything my principal says about me. Hence the tenure system that forces him to give me due process, to prove his case and to give me a chance to fix the problem before I'm fired. What you are failing to consider is how attractive firing teachers at the top of their pay scale becomes. If teachers start at $40K and top out at $70K in 10 years, over a 30 year career they average $65K/year. If you target teachers for termination as soon as they reach top pay and replace them with new teachers after 10 years, the average teacher salary goes down by $10k per year. Now multiply that by the number of teachers in the district and remember it's forever as long as you get rid of teachers at top pay as soon as they get there and ask yourself how much of a pay raise can the administrators get if this extra money is there.

How would you like to work in isolation, with one person deciding your fate who will be believed above all others, be viewed as too expensive to keep and have no protection? You're kidding yourself if you think the system will be fair. This is a set up for a system that will be rife with nepotism and cronyism. It's a system where teachers will not teach their conscience because they'll have to drink the kool aid to keep their jobs. Actually, that's one of the things wrong with education now. Teachers like me who came out of industry with grand ideas of changing education need to drink the kool aid to keep our jobs. And the public still blames teachers for the state of education. The mistake you're making is in thinking that they will keep good teachers just because they're good teachers. Ask my peers and they'll tell you I'm a good teacher. So will many of my students. So will my former principal. None of that is going to stop me from being fired in May because my principal just doesn't like me or my teaching style. You see I believe that you must hold students accountable for learning in order for learning to take place and he wants easy A's so parents and students are happy. I lose. He wins. End game.

Without strong tenure laws we are nothing but marionettes dancing on the puppeteer's strings. If anything, tenure laws need to be strengthened and teachers given the opportunity to build their own case that they are good teachers. I didn't do it this year but if I'm still teaching next I will start the process of becoming nationally board certified just so I have something to defend myself with if I meet up with another principal like the one I have now. I don't know what his beef is with me. I suspect it's that I'm a former engineer. Many in education look down upon anyone who didn't start as a teacher as an outsider. It may be that simple but I'm still going to lose my job. On the bright side, there is such a glut of STEM teachers they'll replace me in a heartbeat. They won't miss a beat.

I just want May to get here. They have to tell me by the end of May that they are not renewing my contract for next year. I just want this over. I can't put my heart into teaching this year because I have to use so much time looking for another job. The stress of the situation negatively is impacting my ability to teach. I can't sleep. I'm gaining weight. My blood pressure is up. I just want this over. Situations like mine are what tenure is designed to stop. Of course I'm not tenured so nothing will help me.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 02-24-2014 at 03:35 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:59 PM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top