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Many of the most successful corporations today, and the most cutting edge, do much of their work in small group settings, not individual workers sitting alone at a desk. In schools, group work can be overdone, just as in the past it was not done enough. And that problem is one of the things I looked for when I was doing observations of teachers. Does a particular teacher do just the same routine everyday, or do they vary their lesson plans to appeal to the learning and experience styles of different learners and future employees.
Is "chemistry light" or "physics light" not better than no chemistry or physics at all?
My career was in I.T. consulting and it is definitely true that teamwork and the ability to work in group settings is critical. Schools are just not able to duplicate situations that provide experience that is beneficial. It is just not high school group projects but I have not seen in work in undergraduate or graduate settings.
I agree that "chemistry light" or "physics light" is better than no chemistry or physics at all. I think students should be filling out their schedule every year with some type of math, science, English, social studies, etc. I see students who have early release where they leave school early because they have fulfilled all of their graduation requirements.
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Originally Posted by phetaroi
It isn't so much that they are blocked by rules and regulations, as possibly being blocked by missing building blocks that then make getting back into a "higher" track difficult or impossible. I'm not saying it is a common problem, but that is something I would want to assure didn't happen.
For example, although it didn't affect me in high school, when I started college I spent a full year in computer programming before switching over to a program in teaching history...and later to a program in teaching science. Some students take a while to find their niche.
Unless a student is attempting to be accepted into a medical, science, math, or engineering field where they need to take as much math and/or science as possible, how are they going to fall off the track?
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
There are all sorts of models out there, which is exactly why teachers need to vary their lesson delivery modes.
Booz-Allen Hamilton, one of the "beltway bandits", and a consulting company with over 80 offices throughout the world, does much of its work via work teams...at least that's what one of their executives told us at an inservice meeting at their office in McLean, Virginia. I then asked a friend of mine who worked for them, and he said yes, his project team had a common work space. Of course, individual parts of the job at hand were divvied up, but much of the planning and -- particularly during the culminating conclusion of projects when they worked humongous sifts to meet deadlines -- were done in consultation.
My medical practice -- with about 6 doctors and 6 nurse practitioners and a couple of specialists -- is pretty much like what you're describing.
But even in many (most?) middle schools there is a 3-tiered team approach: electives, interdisciplinary core team, and content department. It was interesting as this format gained popularity how some teachers...particularly many older teachers..floundered at working in any type of team setting. But it was a wonderful system. In the content team, teachers could consult about their subject's content. In the interdisciplinary team, teachers could consult about kids; one teacher could often explain how he/she was having success with a kid that others were floundering with. Of course in the classroom it's usually one teacher and 25 kids (give or take).
Much of my career was in consulting firms that competed with Booz-Allen Hamilton. I worked on projects all over the country, some of which involved over a hundred people. Even sales proposals took a team of people to complete, especially if the involved government agencies. Educators are fooling themselves if they think they can simulate this type of work in a high school classroom. Observe what goes on and you'll find it is mostly wasted classroom time. The potential now exists to do this with groupware applications so the teaming can occur outside of the classroom.
My career was in I.T. consulting and it is definitely true that teamwork and the ability to work in group settings is critical. Schools are just not able to duplicate situations that provide experience that is beneficial. It is just not high school group projects but I have not seen in work in undergraduate or graduate settings.
I agree that "chemistry light" or "physics light" is better than no chemistry or physics at all. I think students should be filling out their schedule every year with some type of math, science, English, social studies, etc. I see students who have early release where they leave school early because they have fulfilled all of their graduation requirements.
Unless a student is attempting to be accepted into a medical, science, math, or engineering field where they need to take as much math and/or science as possible, how are they going to fall off the track?
Much of my career was in consulting firms that competed with Booz-Allen Hamilton. I worked on projects all over the country, some of which involved over a hundred people. Even sales proposals took a team of people to complete, especially if the involved government agencies. Educators are fooling themselves if they think they can simulate this type of work in a high school classroom. Observe what goes on and you'll find it is mostly wasted classroom time. The potential now exists to do this with groupware applications so the teaming can occur outside of the classroom.
I'm not so sure we are as far apart as you think.
To be honest, schools can't replicate much of anything done in the real world, for a myriad of reasons...including the simple fact that children are not adults. Science class cannot replicate what scientists do, and programs that have tried to do that have flopped (e.g., ESCP). All schools can do is give students a "taste" of the real world. But here's what really doesn't help -- lectures all the time, rote memory (and I'm not saying that memorizing certain things isn't good; but as a geology major in the 1970s, virtually every date of every era, period, and epoch has now changed).
In terms of "chemistry light", somewhere along the line (either in my high school or some high school I taught in) there was a course named "consumer chemistry". It was, basically, chemistry light...what do everyday people need to know about chemistry. I thought it was a good idea.
As the editor Bill Brann pointed out in 1896, the purpose of free public schools is to give the skills needed for citizenship. College prep should NOT be funded by taxes. Neither should "quality of life" courses -- except physical fitness so the young adults can serve in the armed forces, if necessary.
British public schools (in our sense) end at age 14.
As the editor Bill Brann pointed out in 1896, the purpose of free public schools is to give the skills needed for citizenship. College prep should NOT be funded by taxes. Neither should "quality of life" courses -- except physical fitness so the young adults can serve in the armed forces, if necessary.
British public schools (in our sense) end at age 14.
Bill Brann's opinion is as valuable as any other one individual's opinion. That makes him 1 out of 319 million.
Bill Brann's opinion is as valuable as any other one individual's opinion. That makes him 1 out of 319 million.
Actually, Bill Brann was very clear-sighted, especially for his time and location, late-Victorian America. His opinion is still worth more than most and he had great influence, until he was fatally shot in the back by a Baptist real-estate agent (for making some uninhibited comments about Baylor University).
In 1896, college prep was still Latin and Greek, in a debased form that, as another writer commented, would not be tolerated for its lack of results in teaching any other language. We've rid ourselves of that, but, looking back, how much of your education was worthwhile? I "studied" Russian and German for three years and never saw a foreign newspaper. What I did get was myopia, from being confined indoors when my distance vision should have been developing. But it's convenient to keep the kids in a big building while the parents work their day jobs. Just don't pretend that it's "education".
Higher than I would set them, probably, but not achievable. That way, if they want to go to college, they have met the entry requirements. Not everyone makes a vocational decision for life at 16.
Looking through this thread, I came upon this post of mine. I meant to say "achievable".
Actually, Bill Brann was very clear-sighted, especially for his time and location, late-Victorian America. His opinion is still worth more than most and he had great influence, until he was fatally shot in the back by a Baptist real-estate agent (for making some uninhibited comments about Baylor University).
In 1896, college prep was still Latin and Greek, in a debased form that, as another writer commented, would not be tolerated for its lack of results in teaching any other language. We've rid ourselves of that, but, looking back, how much of your education was worthwhile? I "studied" Russian and German for three years and never saw a foreign newspaper. What I did get was myopia, from being confined indoors when my distance vision should have been developing. But it's convenient to keep the kids in a big building while the parents work their day jobs. Just don't pretend that it's "education".
I'm not sure what seeing a foreign newspaper has to do with studying a "foreign" language. I know in high school and college the study of languages does include some study of the culture as well. I recall my daughter being required to watch French news on TV in college. The relationship of reading to myopia is not established. https://nei.nih.gov/health/errors/myopia
I'm not sure what seeing a foreign newspaper has to do with studying a "foreign" language. I know in high school and college the study of languages does include some study of the culture as well. I recall my daughter being required to watch French news on TV in college. The relationship of reading to myopia is not established. https://nei.nih.gov/health/errors/myopia
Humorous story:
One day when I was living in Bangkok a monk invited me to visit his temple. It was a poor temple that tourists didn't visit at all...unless maybe they just happened to stumble upon it. The monk gathered 2 other monks together and asked me to help them continue learning English, although they were all slightly functional. So we sat down together in a kuti and they had a book called something like "Using Newspaper To Learn English". Well, I could see how that might be helpful if you had some rudimentary knowledge. It was a disaster. They were obsessive about learning what a masthead was, why the most important story in most newspapers is in the upper right corner of the front page, etc. I couldn't get them to understand that the technicalities of how to structure a newspaper wasn't really the point of using a newspaper to help learn English.
What is a non academic child. I'm guessing that would be me since I barely graduated high school...and I mean barely graduated.
Of course, after high school I earned a degree in computer sciences, 2 more degrees in geosciences, and another degree in educational administration. And was virtually always on the Dean's List.
And I'm why...and others like me are why...I don't want to shut doors to children. I'm not saying there can't be "tracks", but tracks shouldn't cut off people's futures.
I would not consider you non academic if you went back and got degrees.
I'm talking the kids who are either good with their hands or kids that struggle and hate school. More of the struggling part as a lot of kids hate school, lol.
Why do we require an academic program to get a diploma when many kids would benefit by going into a trade? We are not all cut from the same cloth and I think that is where our education system fails the most.
I did pretty well in school but hated it after Junior year. I went on to a University only to hate it more. The troubled kids in my HS got to go to BOSCES which gave them training for a trade. Often I wished I was one of the bad kids because at least they got out of HS ready to earn money.
I would not consider you non academic if you went back and got degrees.
I'm talking the kids who are either good with their hands or kids that struggle and hate school. More of the struggling part as a lot of kids hate school, lol.
Why do we require an academic program to get a diploma when many kids would benefit by going into a trade? We are not all cut from the same cloth and I think that is where our education system fails the most.
I did pretty well in school but hated it after Junior year. I went on to a University only to hate it more. The troubled kids in my HS got to go to BOSCES which gave them training for a trade. Often I wished I was one of the bad kids because at least they got out of HS ready to earn money.
Please read through this thread. You will see some of your concerns addressed.
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