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As someone who spent 8 years + in college, the largest issue I see is the proliferation of degrees that will not provide students with a skill set that can provide them with good future employment opportunities. Does anyone believe spending 100k or more for a degree in Anthropology, which pays the average graduate a starting wage of 28k, is a great deal? How about film and photographic arts? Philosophy? The list goes on and on. While these are all interesting subjects, they in no way prepare a student for the real world. A few years back, my niece got a degree in Communications from a very good school. She incurred significant expenses that will dog her for years. Sadly, after graduation, she couldn't find a job that pays more than 30k.
Eh. I taught special education in a very innovative and specialized school designed for students with profound autism and other neurological disorders. Starting salaries were just shy of 30k. Topped out at 40-ish (for instructors, anyway).
This is the real world. I was more than prepared for it.
It may be time to accept and acknowledge that there are many fields people choose (not end up in, but actively choose) for reasons other than salary alone, and there are many, many positions in critical, rewarding, and necessary fields that are nowhere near six figures, but also require specialized training and degrees.
I've probably received a better education simply doing research for freelance writing projects than many of my peers received by going to college.
I admire your dedication to self-education. I agree that it is important to be a life long learner and agree that learning doesn't happen just in the classroom. Kudos to you for that!
But, if you've never actually attended college how do you know with certainty that you've received a better education simply by doing research for freelance writing projects than many of your peers received in college?
The rise of federally funded student loans is part of the PROBLEM with college costs. By using the government to increase the number of students going in, the demand went up, colleges raised their rates per law of supply and demand (after all, federal funds = more money for them), college degrees became less valued (hence why administrative assistant positions now require an associates) and now college costs are going UP and are now at historically high levels.
Federal student loans have been around since the 1970s and there has always been a cap on the amount undergraduates can borrow.
So, blaming the entire increase of college costs on Federal student loans doesn't really make sense.
The availability of Federal student loans might have had some effect on colleges' ability to charge more, but they can't account for the entire increase in costs.
As for the supply and demand argument there are more college seats available than there are students who want to attend college, and that has been true for many years.
While I wouldn't be apt to ask a plumber about the intricacies of foreign policy, the point was over rampant populist attempts to undermine actual expertise in general, replacing it with baseless propaganda and emotionalism. Nothing good lies down that road.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25
Too bad. You might be surprised that people who are in trades are :gasp: interested and educated in subjects other than those they work in. Amazing huh?
I wouldn't expect a plumber to give me a detailed synopsis of the Great Game and how it's still affecting regional security in Central Asia, nor would I expect an expert on Afghani foreign policy to know the code for drain pipe slope. Everyone has expertise outside of their chosen field, but generally not to the level of someone in that field.
Both plumbing and foreign policy can be useful in the right context. Just as there is a tendency among some who are highly educated to discount the importance of or skill required to be successful in the trades, there is a similar backlash from some in the trades to discount the importance, relevance, or difficulty in the liberal arts. Especially those liberal arts outside of science and math.
I came from a poor family. My school counselor told me that I shouldn't even consider going to college because it would be a waste of time and money.
I ignored him and went to college. I had to take student loans out and work while going to school, but I saw it as an investment in myself.
Going to college was the BEST investment I ever made in my life. It changed everything for me. Every single one of my college classes taught me valuable life skills that I am still using today.
It saddens me to hear people spinning the same garbage today that my school counselor was spinning back in the day. If I'd listened to him, my life would have gone in a very different direction.
I would love to hear more. I was not raised poor but I didn't understand what wealth was or that my family was fairly low on the totem pole until I left town and went to college.
I went to three college and have two degrees. I now work in the blue collar world with many guys who were in the military. Most of them have traveled much more extensively than I have (Germany, Japan, Iraq, etc.). Most of them have much more money than I have thanks to military benefits. All of them are pretty good guys and I often wish that I had served. I did end up doing physical offshore labor which was pretty intense and about as harsh as I think you can experience in the civilian world in the United States short of doing the crab fishing up in Alaska.
But they make many mistakes now at age 50 or 60 that they would not make if they were roundly college-educated. Their criticism of popular culture is off the mark. They don't understand finance. They don't have an accurate historical perspective. They were "taught" by men of action, in the absence of the great thinkers.
I made the mistake of bringing this up to one of them about two weeks ago. He was swift to revert to low-class put-downs. They employ tactics that frame the confrontation and ensure their victory. They will not concede defeat. They will not change.
It sounds arrogant to say but the fact is that exposure to Foucault, Derrida, Baudrillard, Camus, etc., etc., etc., really does put your mind in to a larger realm. After the recent wave of hurricanes, I looked for and found the Hemingway short story re: the Florida Keys hurricane and subsequent looting. It was fantastic and far beyond anything to be experienced on television or on Facebook or throwing around light insults smoking by the loading dock.
I am an educated person and I am not afraid to state that it vastly improved my life. I and other people who spent thousands of hours in our university libraries owe no apology to those who are not and who refuse to improve themselves. The anti-college movement is a Fascist scam and I know this because I went to college and studied fascism and don't hesitate to assert that the Kochs and others are Fascists intent on wrecking the United States for their personal benefit.
Actually, I have personal experience with just this question.
You see, my daughter doubled majored in studio art AND anthropology. I'm sure you think studio art is a useless liberal arts major too. Her courses taught her lots of useful job skills: how to write, how to solve problems, how to do research, how to work with other people, how to write a budget proposal, how to understand different perspectives.
i have an art degree. I believe that studio art and art history are two incredibly valuable experiences.
Why?
First, anyone in a studio art class has to put their work up on the wall in front of their teacher and their peers. Almost no non-creative activity requires this. Sure, theater and music and sports do, but for the most part, students in other realms write papers that just the professor and their TA read. They can turn in garbage, get their B-, and move on. With studio art, your mediocrity and insecurities are laid bare. Week after week you have to defend your work, not just a thesis defense.
Art history is also valuable in the way that only academic activity is valuable. Pragmatic vocational stuff (welding, woodworking, electrical) is simply pragmatic (viscerally satisfying to any male with red blood, but practical application does not necessarily fulfill a man's academic impulses). See a mole and whack that mole. Academic activity intersects the rest of life at unlikely angles. Art history, like music history, hits political, religious, financial, and technological history obliquely. It kicks other historical perspectives into 3, 4, 5-D.
But they make many mistakes now at age 50 or 60 that they would not make if they were roundly college-educated. Their criticism of popular culture is off the mark. They don't understand finance. They don't have an accurate historical perspective. They were "taught" by men of action, in the absence of the great thinkers.
I made the mistake of bringing this up to one of them about two weeks ago. He was swift to revert to low-class put-downs. They employ tactics that frame the confrontation and ensure their victory. They will not concede defeat. They will not change.
It sounds arrogant to say but the fact is that exposure to Foucault, Derrida, Baudrillard, Camus, etc., etc., etc., really does put your mind in to a larger realm. After the recent wave of hurricanes, I looked for and found the Hemingway short story re: the Florida Keys hurricane and subsequent looting. It was fantastic and far beyond anything to be experienced on television or on Facebook or throwing around light insults smoking by the loading dock.
I am an educated person and I am not afraid to state that it vastly improved my life. I and other people who spent thousands of hours in our university libraries owe no apology to those who are not and who refuse to improve themselves. The anti-college movement is a Fascist scam and I know this because I went to college and studied fascism and don't hesitate to assert that the Kochs and others are Fascists intent on wrecking the United States for their personal benefit.
Care to elaborate on popular culture and finance mistakes? This doesn’t sound like a topic in which a lack of education is a factor. Seems more of a generational gap issue for popular culture. Even finance can vary based upon generation and personal views. The start of the second paragraph above may be why the confrontation became defensive. To them your words and body language may have told them that you feel superior to them because you went to college and they didn’t. There are things colleges teach that they didn’t learn nor experience. However, there are things the military teaches that YOU didn’t learn nor experience. There are benefits to both experiences but merely having gone to college doesn’t make you superior or smarter than one who didn’t go to college. I’ve known some incredibly stupid college graduates and I’ve known some very intelligent people who never went to college. Talk with your coworkers without the preconceived notions of “no diploma=stupid” and actually listen to them. Sure, some may be stupid muscle head grunts. Some may surprise you with a different point of view you had t considered.
i have an art degree. I believe that studio art and art history are two incredibly valuable experiences.
Why?
First, anyone in a studio art class has to put their work up on the wall in front of their teacher and their peers. Almost no non-creative activity requires this. Sure, theater and music and sports do, but for the most part, students in other realms write papers that just the professor and their TA read. They can turn in garbage, get their B-, and move on. With studio art, your mediocrity and insecurities are laid bare. Week after week you have to defend your work, not just a thesis defense.
Art history is also valuable in the way that only academic activity is valuable. Pragmatic vocational stuff (welding, woodworking, electrical) is simply pragmatic (viscerally satisfying to any male with red blood, but practical application does not necessarily fulfill a man's academic impulses). See a mole and whack that mole. Academic activity intersects the rest of life at unlikely angles. Art history, like music history, hits political, religious, financial, and technological history obliquely. It kicks other historical perspectives into 3, 4, 5-D.
Reminds me of something I once heard. An architect can design a building, but it takes skilled tradesmen to bring the drawing to life. Architects and engineers are great with drawings and plans but far too many are useless when it comes time to use hand or power tools.
Reminds me of something I once heard. An architect can design a building, but it takes skilled tradesmen to bring the drawing to life. Architects and engineers are great with drawings and plans but far too many are useless when it comes time to use hand or power tools.
I worked one year when I was young, for an independent home-builder. The architect's blueprints were just a source of suggestion for him. He ignored features that were impractical or too expensive and replaced them with some that were functional and affordable. He did such good work, that the buyers never noticed the difference.
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