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There's a difference between being an educated individual and being FORMALLY educated to do a JOB.
Only colloquially.
Being well read, is not the same thing as being well educated. You and the other poster are talking about being well read, which is a corner stone of being well educated but not the whole kit and kaboodle.
You also are confusing vocational training and an education. College is not vocational training and in fact was never meant to be. It is only in recent years, that people think a college education is about getting a job. A college education is about becoming well educated in a particular field, and that is something that goes beyond reading.
And I would argue that a student attending community college, working part time and paying his own rent in an apartment is far more experienced than a full-time student living in a dorm with bills paid by mom and dad and no financial responsibility.
It's a matter of perspective. Going to a CC for 2 years and transferring is far more financially sound. Get the degree and the name without all the cost. Great lesson to learn.
College was never supposed to be a "right of passage to adulthood." It was supposed to be an education to get a better job. And if it doesn't fulfill that requirement, it's a complete waste of money.
I used to feel the same way, I even encouraged my siblings to go to CC than uni. That was a mistake. For many fields the experiences you get at a university cannot be replicated at a CC. For example, my daughter who went to out flagship, got to work on research, publish two papers, and travel abroad presenting that research multiple times before she was a junior. That is not the case at the vast majority of CC students, even at the top ranked one in our county.
Given her field of choice, and the fact she knew she needed a graduate degree it was a much more financially sound decision for her to go to the flagship rather than the local CC.
There's no doubt that college costs have grown in the last 30 years.
However, published prices (sticker price on colleges' websites) and net price (what individual families actually pay out of pocket) are two different things.
In reality, the increases in the average net prices that students pay after taking grant aid and tax benefits into account has been smaller over the long term than the increased in college sticker prices. (If you're interested in seeing factual data on this, you can find it here: https://trends.collegeboard.org/college-pricing)
So, if you want to do a cost benefit for your family, you have to use your net price, not published prices.
A few years ago, the U.S. Department of Education mandated that every college must offer what is called a Net Price Calculator on their website. Families can plug in some information and they'll get an estimate of what their actual cost of attendance will be at the school.
I mention this because a lot of parents and students just ignore these calculators. They apply to a bunch of colleges hoping for the best with financial aid, or worse, they rule out colleges based solely on sticker price, when in reality, they may be passing up a school that will work out to have a lower net price and thus a higher cost-benefit ratio.
The advice given in another post to be an informed consumer is critical. If you have children thinking about college, you and your child need to run the estimates on the colleges' net price calculators BEFORE it's decided where to apply.
Don't apply to colleges "hoping for the best." Apply with an idea of what you'll have to pay at the group of colleges your family selects.
I also think that a lot of parents sort of hope for the best when it comes to saving for their kids' college educations. They think "well, they'll get financial aid" or "they'll get scholarships" or "they'll go to our cheap state public." So, they don't really save anything for college. Then they discover too late that they're not eligible for as much financial aid as they thought or their kid isn't going to get a full ride scholarship somewhere.
I'm a retired college counselor and I saw even wealthy families fall into this trap. I never understood it. To me, putting away a little each month for college was just something my husband and I did from the time our kids were born. But, then, we both saw the difference that college made in our own lives, so we never second guessed that we wanted to help our own children have the same wonderful benefits of college.
Your comment about doing a "cost benefit" analysis makes me wonder: are some parents failing to save anything for college because they're waiting to see if their kids are smart enough to go to college?
If so, it's too late at that point. That's sort of like saying, "I won't start saving for retirement until I know I want to retire."
I do also think that students should have some skin in the game. There is nothing wrong with working summers while you're in high school or having an on campus job when you're in college to help pay for it. I was always surprised at how many parents looked at me in horror when I suggested that their kids work a part time job while they were attending college. Taking out a reasonable amount of student loans is also skin in the game for students.
Now, not all high school students have parents to help them. If anyone reading this falls into this category, talk to your school counselor AND college financial aid offices to sort things out. There are also some good resources about financial aid online (specifically: https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/) that you can use to educate yourself about paying for college and avoiding too much debt. (These are good resources for parents too)
However, if you ARE a parent reading this you DO have steps you can take to make sure your child gets a good education without breaking the bank. Don't feel powerless and think that college is too expensive. Educate yourself. Run the net price calculators. Make sure your kids' college list has a good shot at being FINANCIALLY sound for your family before they send out applications. Save. Save. Save. (Even a small amount in cash can sometimes make a huge difference in choices available).
College IS expensive. No two ways about it. I agree that not all kids should be pushed into college; some would be better served by going into the military or apprenticing for a trade.
But, in my opinion, if your child is interested in going to college, and is a motivated student in high school, then college is STILL a worthwhile investment.
Your mileage may vary, of course.
This is a respectful if certainly biased opinion (you worked in higher ed). My point was that rationalizing college versus everything else is not anti-intellectualism. Also, the net cost may not be increasing as fast but it is still increasing (per you). There is nothing to really justify these increases above inflation (IMHO) other than universities think they got you right where they want you. Grants from outside the university and tax benefits still mean dollars to the university. They have certainly benefited from the increased costs as evidenced by the growth in number and salaries of administrators.
Hey, if a family can afford the on-campus experience without a young adult (or themselves) going into debt, go for it! It is lovely to move out into a dorm and live in la-la land for a few years. Absolutely!
I was talking more about kids from working families taking out loans for that experience. Or their parents drain their home equity or take out loans themselves or reduce their own retirement savings. Stuff like that. That is just plain stupid.
It's funny how ingrained the whole dorm concept is for Americans. It's another example of something that was always just meant for the upper class (like fancy weddings) that has trickled down and become another expectation.
Making a blanket statement about not taking out loans is as foolish as making a blanket statement saying to take out no loans. Debt is not inherently bad, there is smart debt, and some student loan debt (particularly that which is subsidized) is smart debt.
It is fascinating to me that you think dorm life is la-la land, as you put it. Dorm life is what you make it. My daughter lived in the dorm, instead of at home, for a school that was only 40 miles away. It was 100% worth it. She got a flexible schedule that allowed her to work in her field, she did not have the expenses of a car or traveling, she got to utilize all of the resources (libraries, office hours, etc) any time she needed to without having to commute. She was not a "party" kid, and neither were most of her room mates. Now if your child is not in control of themselves, or you are worried they will become some sort of version of animal house, sure keep them home to mature a few years but don't pretend they are all like that or that there are not distinct advantages to living on campus.
This is a different issue from political persuasion, but yes, I experienced the "tell them what they want to hear" quite often in college. More from the liberal arts professors than the physics and engineering ones. I suspect because liberal arts is more opinion based rather than on the cold equations.
Exactly, physics does not give a damn about physicists.
I doubt if any electricians I have used have read any of those books. And I worked in a department of electrical engineers and design techs for years and what they learned was on the job. 95% or better of all learning is on the job. Most textbooks are just primers to understand what the area of study encompasses. When students arrive at their first job they have pretty close to zero knowledge of how to do the job. Whatever they learned in school is just to prove that they are teachable. The actual knowledge to do the job is still to be learned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by psikeyhackr
And the point of the list would be to get all of the garbage out of the way of people who want to pursue.
I doubt if any electricians I have used have read any of those books. And I worked in a department of electrical engineers and design techs for years and what they learned was on the job. 95% or better of all learning is on the job. Most textbooks are just primers to understand what the area of study encompasses. When students arrive at their first job they have pretty close to zero knowledge of how to do the job. Whatever they learned in school is just to prove that they are teachable. The actual knowledge to do the job is still to be learned.
The books they give you in school are usually theoretical never never land BS.
Like like doing calculations for physics in frictionless vacuums. Like we encounter those all of the time.
Gibilisco's book is more practical. The Art of Electronics is more high brow, for the reader that can get through Gibilisco's,
Electricians and electronic technicians are somewhat different.
These days kids can get Raspberry Pis and robot kits like nothing available when I was in high school. The teachers are behind the times.
Last edited by psikeyhackr; 10-24-2017 at 02:17 PM..
I think any rise of anti-college sentiment is, sadly, perfectly in keeping with dominance of Republicans, who always hope to cut education funding, and Trump, who is clearly one of the least educated presidents we've had in a long time. He's bragged about not having read a book since graduation, and has clearly not acquired any of the broader culture we hope for in a college-educated person.
I'm sorry, though, that you put it only in terms of its usefulness or "worth" in getting someone a job. Personally, I think there is great merit in education for its own sake.
I came from a poor family. My school counselor told me that I shouldn't even consider going to college because it would be a waste of time and money.
I ignored him and went to college. I had to take student loans out and work while going to school, but I saw it as an investment in myself.
Going to college was the BEST investment I ever made in my life. It changed everything for me. Every single one of my college classes taught me valuable life skills that I am still using today.
It saddens me to hear people spinning the same garbage today that my school counselor was spinning back in the day. If I'd listened to him, my life would have gone in a very different direction.
C'mon.
Did you REALLY have to go to college to acquire LIFE SKILLS?
Do people who say they learned life skills in college think they wouldnt have learned those skills if they hadn't gone? I mean, you do realize that people learn how to live life by living whatever life they lead, right? Some people attend university, some go to CC while working, some travel, some start businesses, many have families, many buy homes, some volunteer, they work in all different types of industries... there's an enormous amount of learning going on outside of classrooms.
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