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And how much better would those top performing students have done if the school system put half the attention into them as it does the bottom performers? How many top and middle performing students did you have to sacrifice to turn around one bottom performer? How many classroom hours are you willing to lose to the disrupters when that hurts the rest of the class?
What do teachers have against top performing students to want to handicap them? Why not support them the same way you do the bottom performers?
What exactly would a school district do differently to move resources from bottom performers to top performing students? Schools have learning support teachers and aides who work with students with IEPs. What additional resources do you want to give top performing students? I'm assuming a high school has a high number of AP classes with reasonable class sizes.
What evidence do you have that teachers have something against top performing students? I would say it is the exact opposite.
What exactly would a school district do differently to move resources from bottom performers to top performing students? Schools have learning support teachers and aides who work with students with IEPs. What additional resources do you want to give top performing students? I'm assuming a high school has a high number of AP classes with reasonable class sizes.
What evidence do you have that teachers have something against top performing students? I would say it is the exact opposite.
In my school almost all the teachers in academic courses consistently fought for teaching our gifted classes. Rarely did a teacher ask for regular classes.
In my school almost all the teachers in academic courses consistently fought for teaching our gifted classes. Rarely did a teacher ask for regular classes.
You know that in many schools teachers fight to teach the upper level classes, as opposed to the general ones, because of the perception (and the reality) that there are fewer discipline problems and distractions in them.
It's gotten worse since evaluations are based on test results.
We had one teacher who had, to put it charitably, challenges with classroom management so a schedule of all Honors and AP classes was custom built for him. Then he retired.
For your last, financial demographics track pretty closely with school performance. The reasons are many but included would be lack of family education, early pregnancy, involvement with the criminal justice system plus several more. Much of the time all the deficits are multi-generational.
Thank you. Though I have to ask how much is chicken and how much is egg so to speak. Example: I grew up in a town where there wasn't that much difference between top and bottom, since we all were on the bottom in terms of the big world. Thing is, folks didn't think of themselves that way. They thought of themselves as solid working class people making a home and future for their families. What I will say on the positive side is even though many of the parents didn't graduate high school (my dad for example), they were well educated in things that matter -- money, business, grammar, history, geography -- and well read on daily happenings. Most families got at least 2 daily papers and it wasn't unusual to find a Wall Street Journal and New York Times around. Even our high school dutifully put out a daily copy of our local, several regional, state, WSJ, Post, and NYT in the school library (who remembers those slotted rods?) and you'd find kids glancing through them. Education was important to the parents as a way for their kids to move ahead.
Interestingly it was the school itself that put less emphasis on the value of education. I remember a talk I had with the Superintendent where he told me the purpose of the school was to put workers in the local plant.
My middle school was located in Northern Virginia, about 7 miles from the White House. One year I took a car full of African American students down for the lighting of the National Christmas Tree. As we drove up 14th Street one student suddenly yelled out, "What is that?!?" I said, "That's the Washington Monument". Another exclaimed, "What is that big building?" It was the Capitol. I was stunned that these kids lived 7 miles from these national landmarks and had no idea what they were. A few days later I asked the boy who had made the exclaimed question about the Washington Monument how could he not know that landmark. "Mr. Victor, we're poor. My mother and father both work full time jobs and my father also works a part time job. They don't have the time or money to take us any place like you do".
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Let's think about this for a minute. You're saying these kids, in middle school, had never had a teacher tell them about the Washington Monument? Or the Capitol? Never in all those years seen a picture in a textbook? The statement "we're poor" is a very poor excuse for not knowing those things. They aren't the only kids in the country whose parents work full time jobs.
Yet kids all over the country learn about the Washington Monument, Capitol, White House, Jefferson Memorial, Lincoln Memorial without visiting Washington DC. I also learned about things like the Grand Canyon, the prairie, the desert, Great Salt Lake, Hopi Dwellings, Folsom Point, the Pyramids, Aztecs, Maya, Inca, and so much more in my history and geography classes. These kids learned none of that in those classes?
What exactly would a school district do differently to move resources from bottom performers to top performing students? Schools have learning support teachers and aides who work with students with IEPs. What additional resources do you want to give top performing students? I'm assuming a high school has a high number of AP classes with reasonable class sizes.
What evidence do you have that teachers have something against top performing students? I would say it is the exact opposite.
Before they even get to high school, or even middle school, what they need is time to cover more material and more depth. When so much of class time is taken up by the bottom few, how many topics are either not covered or just skimmed because there isn't enough time? How much productive time is lost every year due to the amount of time and effort spend on the bottom 20%? We're not talking about kids with genuine needs, but kids who consume a lot of class time that could be better spend moving the rest of the class ahead. It was pretty common to watch the same group of kids every day wrap the teacher around the axle for an entire class period by each one asking the same dumb question, in turn. Johnny aske "Why ....?" and the teacher spends 10 minutes answering Johnny. Then Jenny asks the same question and once again 10 minutes explaining it. The Bobbie. Then .... All the time giggling because they are doing it intentionally to disrupt class and getting away with it.
Evidence? My own and others experience: Everything from benign neglect to downright hostility. Even here in the education forum you can find teachers who basically say the top students can get it on their own so they don't need to put effort into them. Just go back a few posts even in this thread.
It's often been said in this forum that all kids have a right to an education, specifically when justifying the effort spent on the low performers. But somehow that same sentiment doesn't come through in the amount of time those same teachers in those same classes devote to the top students. In the past, top students would be punished for things like reading ahead of the class and forced to move at the slowest pace. Today, with computer based systems, they're told the equivalent of "go play in the corner and don't bother me" while the teacher devotes time to the bottom few.
LOL. Let's see, those top performers were getting into Georgetown, the University Of Virginia, George Mason University, and a number of Ivy League universities. Where do you want them to go to college? Heaven? The Vatican?
What of those who are just below the top handfull you're talking about? Suppose they'd gotten the time and support? Could they also have gotten into those schools?
Let's think about this for a minute. You're saying these kids, in middle school, had never had a teacher tell them about the Washington Monument? Or the Capitol? Never in all those years seen a picture in a textbook? The statement "we're poor" is a very poor excuse for not knowing those things. They aren't the only kids in the country whose parents work full time jobs.
Yet kids all over the country learn about the Washington Monument, Capitol, White House, Jefferson Memorial, Lincoln Memorial without visiting Washington DC. I also learned about things like the Grand Canyon, the prairie, the desert, Great Salt Lake, Hopi Dwellings, Folsom Point, the Pyramids, Aztecs, Maya, Inca, and so much more in my history and geography classes. These kids learned none of that in those classes?
I had legions of kids the same across the Potomac from Phetaroi. In a middle/upper middle class high school.
Their excuses/reasons were the same, and many of them had been born in and attended elementary, if not up through middle, school in DC.
Now, you ask about "learning". I can almost guarantee it was taught.
You know that in many schools teachers fight to teach the upper level classes, as opposed to the general ones, because of the perception (and the reality) that there are fewer discipline problems and distractions in them.
It's gotten worse since evaluations are based on test results.
We had one teacher who had, to put it charitably, challenges with classroom management so a schedule of all Honors and AP classes was custom built for him. Then he retired.
Yes, there is that. For some they sorta forget that they are hired to teach kids, not just content. It is nice to be able to get deeper into one's core content, but that's not what most of teaching is really about.
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