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I used the phrase "showing off' simply because that's what it is. You have a smart kid who self-admittedly claims to not fit in socially who's in a low level class showing "the dummies" how smart he is.
And, again, you are completely wrong. I was never trying to show off or prove anything to "the dummies" (to use your term). I was genuinely interested in the subjects that I was asking questions about. If I had been in a class more appropriate for my ability, that would not have been a problem. That's why everybody loses when a student is put in a class below his/her ability.
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You'll have that in AP classes, too, but at least those kids are mostly on the same level.
Which brings up another issue: the push for AP classes has resulted in kids taking the classes who don't belong there but having big AP enrollment makes the school and Principal look good. IB is the same.
Yes, and the teacher's loyalty is to the students who don't belong in those AP classes, not to the students who actually belong there.
And, again, you are completely wrong. I was never trying to show off or prove anything to "the dummies" (to use your term). I was genuinely interested in the subjects that I was asking questions about. If I had been in a class more appropriate for my ability, that would not have been a problem. That's why everybody loses when a student is put in a class below his/her ability.
Yes, and the teacher's loyalty is to the students who don't belong in those AP classes, not to the students who actually belong there.
You just don't get it do you no matter how many times you're told? The lower end kids, in every class, are the ones that are required to be helped. That's what "teacher" means.
If you were asking questions, or providing excess input, in classes where you were the only one, or one of a few who understood the material, then yes, you were showing off. Either that or you couldn't read the room.
You just don't get it do you no matter how many times you're told? The lower end kids, in every class, are the ones that are required to be helped. That's what "teacher" means.
No. In an AP class, the lower end students do not belong in the class. An AP class needs to be targeted to the high achieving students who belong in that class. Putting students who don't belong in such classes, whether it's to get more teachers pets in the class so they have an advantage in college admissions, or to run up the AP participation rate, or to meet "diversity" requirements, does not benefit anybody.
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If you were asking questions, or providing excess input, in classes where you were the only one, or one of a few who understood the material, then yes, you were showing off. Either that or you couldn't read the room.
No, I was not showing off. I was genuinely interested in that material. Maybe if students are placed in classes more appropriate for their abilities, there won't be that problem.
I suspect that you are talking specifically about my 7th grade science class. I did not feel that I belonged in that class, so I felt no need to defer to the weaker students in that class, who didn't really belong there either. If they felt that my presence in that class was disruptive, then they could have put me in the honors class, rather that some quiet, compliant, teacher's pet who couldn't care less about science.
No. In an AP class, the lower end students do not belong in the class. An AP class needs to be targeted to the high achieving students who belong in that class. Putting students who don't belong in such classes, whether it's to get more teachers pets in the class so they have an advantage in college admissions, or to run up the AP participation rate, or to meet "diversity" requirements, does not benefit anybody.
No, I was not showing off. I was genuinely interested in that material. Maybe if students are placed in classes more appropriate for their abilities, there won't be that problem.
I suspect that you are talking specifically about my 7th grade science class. I did not feel that I belonged in that class, so I felt no need to defer to the weaker students in that class, who didn't really belong there either. If they felt that my presence in that class was disruptive, then they could have put me in the honors class, rather that some quiet, compliant, teacher's pet who couldn't care less about science.
Let me approach this a different way. My school district, at the time, started honors classes in 7th grade. There was a so-called gifted and talented program for grades 2-6, but it was really a program for teachers pets, and it focused mostly on busywork and arts and crafts. The only way in to that program was from the recommendation of your 2nd grade teacher. The people in the program were almost exclusively girls. I was, not surprisingly, not selected for the program. Also, anybody who moved into the district later than 2nd grade was never eligible. You were either in from 2nd grade or not at all.
Honors classes started in 7th grade. Since the science labs could only accommodate 24 students, that meant each science class had a hard cap of 24 students, while other honors classes were more flexible as to their maximum size. The minimum number of students in order to allow a class to run was 13. That meant that if there were between 25 and 36 students qualified for honors science, not everybody could be accommodated (if there were 37 or more, they could add a second section). The school decided to only accept students into honors science if they were in the grade 2-6 so called gifted and talented program, in order to reduce the number to 24. That meant you could only get into honors science if you were a teacher's pet 5 years earlier.
At the time, I felt that was unfair, and that it was a not a good method of breaking the tie. However, I do now realize that whenever there is a resource where demand exceeds supply, whatever method is used to determine who wins and who loses is going to appear unfair and arbitrary to whoever loses.
My wife had a good point: since no matter what method is used to determine who wins and who loses is going to appear to be unfair to whoever loses, it is less important to determine how winners and losers are selected, but more important how the losers are accommodated. I was thrown into a regular 7th grade science class with a mean, strict, authoritarian, old-school teacher who hated any students like myself who were ahead of the curriculum. That was not in the best interest of anybody involved. This class did have several students like myself, but it also had quite a few students who really belonged in a remedial class, but who didn't qualify for special ed for whatever reason.
What was maybe needed was to put us "losers" (those who qualified for honors science but could not be accommodated) in a class with a teacher who was more favorable to us. Maybe put the students who should have been in a remedial class in a different section, with a teacher more favorable to such students, and without students such as myself. Maybe instead of having students like myself wasting my time on busy-work homework that I could have done in elementary school, and being bored out of my mind, maybe instead let each of us do a research project on a topic that we would have learned about in honors science. But just putting us in a class with weaker students and a teacher who resents our existence, and expecting us to shut up so he could focus on those more worthy of an education was not the answer.
No. In an AP class, the lower end students do not belong in the class. An AP class needs to be targeted to the high achieving students who belong in that class. Putting students who don't belong in such classes, whether it's to get more teachers pets in the class so they have an advantage in college admissions, or to run up the AP participation rate, or to meet "diversity" requirements, does not benefit anybody.
No, I was not showing off. I was genuinely interested in that material. Maybe if students are placed in classes more appropriate for their abilities, there won't be that problem.
I suspect that you are talking specifically about my 7th grade science class. I did not feel that I belonged in that class, so I felt no need to defer to the weaker students in that class, who didn't really belong there either. If they felt that my presence in that class was disruptive, then they could have put me in the honors class, rather that some quiet, compliant, teacher's pet who couldn't care less about science.
Then you need to get politically active to change policy and shut down Jay Matthews and his Challenge Index.
It wasn't the fault of the teacher or the other students in the class if you were misplaced. Just your use of the word "defer" says volumes about you. Then and now.
Then you need to get politically active to change policy and shut down Jay Matthews and his Challenge Index.
It wasn't the fault of the teacher or the other students in the class if you were misplaced.
But it wasn't my fault either. And it was the fault of the teacher for treating students like myself so badly and not even making an attempt to accommodate us. He was also known to be a racist, and I heard that he gave a waitress a dime tip.
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Just your use of the word "defer" says volumes about you. Then and now.
Why?
Do you have any response to Post #185? I posted it the same time as your post so you may not have seen it.
I taught advanced culture and history-based courses in college for years here in Wisconsin, and not all of the students (middle/lower-middle class white kids and lower-mid/lower-class Hispanic kids) recognized the Capitol, the White House, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, etc. when I showed images of these things. Many (from all groups) were not familiar with location of important bodies of water, key countries, and U.S. states on a map. It's possible that efforts were previously made to "teach" these things, but efforts do not always turn into "learning."
It could very well be the case that the kids mentioned in pheratoi's post were taught (or "taught") about DC monuments, etc. (that is, the teachers made an attempt), but that they didn't truly "learn" them. Most kids need reinforcement to learn certain things--I certainly didn't remember the Capitol, and probably not the Washington Monument, the very first time images of them were shown to me. All of that stuff was very abstract to me, a kid from California, and I was a well-heeled "gifted" kid in one of the best public school systems in the country. For me, exposure to these images over time did the trick, but not all kids have that opportunity. I don't think it's a stretch to claim that less privileged kids often have even fewer opportunities for educational reinforcement.
To the doubters, I would suggest that we hand 100 randomly selected Americans two things. First, a map of the United States with the states outlined...but not labeled. Second, a map of the world with the countries outlined...but not labeled. Assignment -- based on what they had learned in school, label all the states and all the nations. Predicted average grade = F.
But it wasn't my fault either. And it was the fault of the teacher for treating students like myself so badly and not even making an attempt to accommodate us. He was also known to be a racist, and I heard that he gave a waitress a dime tip.
Why?
Do you have any response to Post #185? I posted it the same time as your post so you may not have seen it.
I just read it.
You keep harping on "teacher's pet". Forgetting school for a minute and put on a management hat in your field. Who are you going to recommend for a slot (assuming equal competence), someone you get along with and does what they're told with a minimum of fuss or a pain in the ass, no matter how smart?
As far as placement goes, there has to be a cutoff somewhere. With no testing done (and people complain about the kid who has 79% not getting in when the cutoff is 80% because, after all, "what's one percent?") then intangibles are going to be considered.
G&T classes are strange in some systems, some will focus on Math, some on Language Arts (Reading and English) while right now the focus is on "Makers" (essentially arts and crafts).
You keep harping on "teacher's pet". Forgetting school for a minute and put on a management hat in your field. Who are you going to recommend for a slot (assuming equal competence), someone you get along with and does what they're told with a minimum of fuss or a pain in the ass, no matter how smart?
And you completely missed the point of my post. In my post, I accepted that there is no completely "fair" way to determine who gets into an honors class and who doesn't. My point was that they need to somehow accommodate the "losers" who really should be in an honors class but aren't in it for whatever reason. Telling us to just shut up so they can focus on those who are more worthy of an education is not the answer.
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As far as placement goes, there has to be a cutoff somewhere. With no testing done (and people complain about the kid who has 79% not getting in when the cutoff is 80% because, after all, "what's one percent?") then intangibles are going to be considered.
True, but irrelevant.
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G&T classes are strange in some systems, some will focus on Math, some on Language Arts (Reading and English) while right now the focus is on "Makers" (essentially arts and crafts).
True, but irrelevant.
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