Are Gen Eds in college useful or just a drag on finishing? (architecture, bachelor)

[mitsguy2001]

Originally Posted by ElijahAstin

That’s nice. I’ve never had any such experience.

So we had different experiences. That does not make my experiences invalid.

You misread my post. I was chiding you for your stereotypical STEM male chauvinism. And while I’m not in a STEM field, people say the same bigoted nonsense about under-represented minorities in my field (as well as many others), and it’s exactly that—bigoted nonsense.

Then take it up with my teachers and professors who very blatantly graded women more leniently. By attacking me, you are shooting the messenger.

[ElijahAstin]

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

So we had different experiences. That does not make my experiences invalid.

But having “different experiences” is a running theme with you, which does make me question your perception.

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

Then take it up with my teachers and professors who very blatantly graded women more leniently. By attacking me, you are shooting the messenger.

I just don’t believe you. And I’m not accusing you of lying. I just (once again) question your perception.

[mitsguy2001]

Originally Posted by ElijahAstin

But having “different experiences” is a running theme with you, which does make me question your perception.

That’s because this forum is dominated by teachers and others who worship teachers, and they can’t handle dissenters.

I just don’t believe you. And I’m not accusing you of lying. I just (once again) question your perception.

You have never been in a classroom with me, so you have no basis to say that anything I said is not true. Just like I would never say that anything you say isn’t true, since I was never in a classroom with me.

[ElijahAstin]

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

That’s because this forum is dominated by teachers and others who worship teachers, and they can’t handle dissenters.

No, you just seem unable to take accountability. Everything is always someone else’s fault, and the sky is falling when things don’t go your way.

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

You have never been in a classroom with me, so you have no basis to say that anything I said is not true. Just like I would never say that anything you say isn’t true, since I was never in a classroom with me.

I didn’t declaratively state that your assertions are untrue. I said I don’t believe you because I question your perception. There’s a difference. For what it’s worth, you don’t have to believe me either.

[lhpartridge]

Originally Posted by tnff

A big part of a technical writing course is learning to write for the audience; using the appropriate jargon for the audience. Much of the technical writing you see is full of jargon because they weren't taught good technical writing skills. So many of the engineers coming out of school write in "academic" style with a lot of third person passive voice. And, in college you tend to get rewarded for using as many words as possible (if nothing else to stretch out a thought to meet a length requirement). Good technical writing using as many words as needed, but no more.



What happens is a lot of time the presenter is merely a stuckee. "Hey Jane, it's your turn in the barrel. Here's the PowerPoint and script to follow." I remember one "train the trainer" session where I was the stuckee from our office. We were given a script and explicit instructions to follow the script exactly. No adlibbing; no paraphrasing; no summarizing. We were just human bots up there presenting. We hated it and the audience hated it.

Regarding the bold: I thought the same thing too until an upper-level psychology professor gave me a "U" on a paper and very generously told me to edit it down to the required 5 pages from the 8 I had turned in. When I asked why, she explained that when you are writing for publication, a paper has to meet the word limit. It was very enlightening and not what I expected. I learned some important lessons from that experience, not the least of which is more is not always better.

[mitsguy2001]

Originally Posted by tnff

And, in college you tend to get rewarded for using as many words as possible (if nothing else to stretch out a thought to meet a length requirement). Good technical writing using as many words as needed, but no more.

I think a reason for that is because lazy and/or incompetent teachers and professors just find it easier to grade based on the number of words or pages rather than the content. Just like lazy and/or incompetent managers judge employees based on the hours that they put in rather than the work that they do.

[tnff]

Originally Posted by lhpartridge

Regarding the bold: I thought the same thing too until an upper-level psychology professor gave me a "U" on a paper and very generously told me to edit it down to the required 5 pages from the 8 I had turned in. When I asked why, she explained that when you are writing for publication, a paper has to meet the word limit. It was very enlightening and not what I expected. I learned some important lessons from that experience, not the least of which is more is not always better.

That actually supports the point I was making. In college classes you write to the professor's desired number of pages. Until that professor explained the need for brevity, you expected you had to write longer and stretch it out got a better grade because that's what you'd learned from previous classes. Which is exactly why we have to teach so many new graduates not to do that.

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by Usagi168

Brevity in writing is a virtue and a skill.

This. We were taught that skill in highschool. We were told that being succinct is best, and that padding the writing assignment, whatever it may be, is a too-obvious ploy.

[North Beach Person]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

This. We were taught that skill in highschool. We were told that being succinct is best, and that padding the writing assignment, whatever it may be, is a too-obvious ploy.

One of the problems, and maybe a reason why long writings happen, is the propensity of some teachers giving assignments with a minimum word count.

I used to ask my students when they'd hand an essay in with twice the number of paragraphs than necessary why, if they'd answered the question, they kept writing (and often hurt their grade doing so). The answer invariably incorporated the names of the same two teachers who rewarded length and who always made assignments with a minimum word count.

[ElijahAstin]

There are different great writing styles. Not everyone has to write like Hemingway. But most of us can stand to be less verbose (which I continue to work on), and it’s fairly unusual for educated people to write pieces that aren’t long enough.

If I ever taught a writing-intensive course, I would probably set a page limit (and not a mandatory minimum) on most assignments.