We need to completely scrap and change our nations education system. (school, techniques)

[seattlenextyear]

"I just looked at the local community college's website, the majority of the "professors" have degrees from local public universities. What is the surprise? "

Oh, you hate public universities too. Nice. How's the weather up there on your high horse? There are plenty of public universities, lets say in California, which are way better than a lot of private universities across the country.

Have you ever set foot in a community college? Ever sat through a class in one? You might learn something. Maybe you'll learn that its silly to argue about something that you really don't know much about?


"At least in the sciences there are two types of community college teachers, ones with a passion for teaching and therefore accept the lower pay and those that essentially failed as researchers and have little other options."

Yes, those options are called: working for the private sector and therefore making twice as much money. Seriously, if you're a community college teacher, you're doing so because you love teaching. The salary+ benefits keep anyone who doesn't have a passion for it out of the applicant pool. Most research university professors are terrible lecturers who aim to have as little interaction with students as possible. That doesn't fly at a CCM.

Anyways, I'm not incriminating my Bachelor's university in a public forum since apparently they were remiss in admitting such a lowly community college student as myself!

[MittenDweller82]

Originally Posted by seattlenextyear

Oh, you hate public universities too. Nice. There are plenty of public universities, lets say in California, which are way better than a lot of private universities across the country. Have you ever set foot in a community college? Ever sat through a class in one? You might learn something.

How's the weather up there on your high horse?

"At least in the sciences there are two types of community college teachers, ones with a passion for teaching and therefore accept the lower pay and those that essentially failed as researchers and have little other options."

Yes, those options are called: working for the private sector and therefore making twice as much money. Seriously, if you're a community college teacher, you're doing so because you love teaching. The salary+ benefits keep anyone who doesn't have a passion for it out of the applicant pool. Most research university professors are terrible lecturers who aim to have as little interaction with students as possible. That doesn't fly at a CCM.

Anyways, I'm not incriminating my Bachelor's university in a public forum since apparently they were remiss in admitting such a lowly community college student as myself!

Many forget what the community college was created for....to provide the opportunity for higher education for "everybody". During the 50's and 60's there was dramatic growth in the construction of high-schools across the country, although almost 3/4 of the HS graduates were choosing not to go to college. It was during this time that CC's began to form across the country in numbers. There goal was to provide higher education but with smaller class sizes and the opportunity for extracurricular activities. The stereotypical view, however was created by our media pundits and public.

[jps-teacher]

As you seem to find my posts difficult to follow, due to their length, I have a synopsis for you at the top of this one:

Put up or shut up:

1) You said that colleges won't allow older student matriculations. I showed they do. Find some that don't or admit you are wrong.

2) You said are "special programs" are often not the same and only offer a particular set of degree options. Prove it.

3) You said "many schools don't deal with transfers from community college." Find me ONE that explicitly excludes community colleges, as opposed to all transfers. Not many. Just one, Humanoid. Can you do that?
************

Below is a full response to your misstatements, retrenchings, and counter-factual claims:

Originally Posted by Humanoid

You are free to believe whatever you like, but I think at least here in California the Community colleges are substandard.

Boy, that's a big shift from your broad sweeping statement about all community colleges everywhere!

Originally Posted by Humanoid

How exactly is a small sample of schools evidence?

Ah, the way of evidence escapes you... If person A says "This never happens" and Person B says "Yes, it does - here is where and how," that is considered evidence to support Person B's argument and refuting Person A's statement. If Person A said it seldom happens, then Person B's statements are still evidence, and Person A needs to provide counter evidence that explicitly applies to the discussion at hand, rather than on a tangent.

Below are quotes from you:

Originally Posted by Humanoid

Its not so simple. Although, the plumber can go back to school he will have limited options. Most good universities don't allow non-standard matriculations and many schools don't deal with transfers from community college.

Originally Posted by Humanoid

in general the good universities don't allow (older student matriculation) where as the local state school often does. And yes, by "good" I'm primarily referring to rankings.

The old student has two options 1.) Going to a CC and transferring, 2.) Trying to matriculate directly into an university. Both options are going to be limiting to the student.

Following so far?

So... I listed a bunch of top colleges and universities from your precious ranking system (8 of the top 16), and provided information that disputes your contention. It supports my contention that older students are NOT excluded from good colleges, nor are Community College transfers.

You? You provided NO EVIDENCE that your position is a reflection of reality. NONE.

I did not prove that "none do," but that was not my position. YOUR position was that good colleges don't. Got any? Have even ONE?

Here are 7 more that allow both community college transfers and older freshman applicants:
Cal Tech, Columbia, U Penn, Duke, Washington U/St. Louis, and Cornell.

Columbia does prefer that older students apply to their non-residential college, though they take the same classes. And Cal Tech? They have a higher acceptance rate for Community College transfers over the last 5 years than for 4 year transfer applicants!

Originally Posted by Humanoid

Furthermore, as I said before some officially allow it but only if space is available.

And as I said, that is no different for older students than younger! And that's about transfers in general, not about community college transfers!!

[quote=Humanoid;4985875]Also, "special admissions" programs are often not the same and only offer a particular set of degree options. Additionally, although colleges rarely explicitly deny applications from older students the application requirements are such that if someone has been out of school for 10 years it will be very hard to put together a good application. I looked at a few of the schools admission policies and I didn't see any of them that have special admission policies for non-standard students. Anyhow, much of what I said is de facto the case rather than an official policy of the university.[quote]

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

You "looked at a few" but choose not to mention which ones.

The "special admissions" programs are to the exact same undergraduate courses and degrees. Got any evidence to the contrary?

"rarely explicitly deny" is a long way from " don't allow." It's also just dead wrong, again.

As for the difficulty putting together a good application after 10 years, it's less hard than you seem to think. Take one or two college courses through a continuing education program. If you do well in them, you have both proof of ability to do college level work and sources for recommendations. High school transcripts are trivial. Taking the same old standardized tests would be needful for some colleges but not all - but for these 'good' universities we are talking about, that's an expected hurdle.

Originally Posted by Humanoid

You haven't shown that I'm wrong, instead you've tried to argue deceptively that you are right. Let's take the case of Stanford, I quote:

"transfer students has been between 1-2%."

Are you not paying attention?

Your argument was that "many schools don't deal with transfers from community college."

Do some not take many transfers at all? Sure! So f'ing what?! That has nothing to do with the explicit viability of community colleges.

Originally Posted by Humanoid

Public universities accept MANY more transfer students than this, in fact usually thousands a year. So, yes with an admit rate of 1~2% I'm sure your community college students are doing very well. Perhaps, what a couple get in a year? I'm not even going to look at the other schools, because I already know what I'm saying is true. Perhaps you should dig a little deeper?

*laughs hard*

So, I list 11 colleges that "deal with" community college transfers and older students and you say "How exactly is a small sample of schools evidence?"

Then you list ONE and decide that your point is proven. Ironic, much?

Besides, Stanford lets more of them in than Princeton, which was an example *I* gave!

Oh, can you give me the name of any individual public university that takes thousands of transfers per year? I'm curious.

Originally Posted by Humanoid

Are you serious? Your typical kid isn't even going to know what jobs are out there, so what are they going to look up? Are they going to read a book of with brief descriptions of all possible careers? That isn't going to be particular useful. No book is going to substitute the sort of information you can get about a field from someone that has a passion from it.

You're right, clearly. It was hopeless for you and nobody who goes to a high school with inept guidance counselors will ever find a good career. You're doomed!

Um... Humanoid? We weren't discussing "someone that has a passion" about a career. Different topic. "good advice" was our topic.

And I am sorry that talking to a librarian is too intimidating for you. Otherwise, s/he would be able to help you to figure out how to use the resources they have. Books aren't that bad - some offer ideas on how to get internships, for example. It works for others... If you just give your librarian a chance you might be able to make it, really!
**************

[seattlenextyear]

"Boy, that's a big shift from your broad sweeping statement about all community colleges everywhere!"

Not to mention that his statements are based on feelings, not actual statistics or first hand knowledge.

But then again, its hard to convince an aristocrat that he isn't actually any better than the common man.

[MittenDweller82]

Unfortunately American citizens want superb public services, pristine schools, and a perfect system.......all with low taxes. However, few nations have been able to obtain such systems, and often have very high taxes. Very few people understand just how complicated public education issues really are, but the same problems have plagued us for many years. Maintaining a "perfect" system is nearly impossible, as our workforce continues to shift from high wage positions, to a majority of lower wage service positions. Does this mean that higher education is no longer needed? It may seem this way, but as other nations continue to surpass the US in educational attainment (as well as many other economic milestones) we are preparing ourselves for a very hard time in the near future. Globalization has done more than just affect industry, it has become intertwined within all institutions and how things are measured internationally. Again I will visit the premise that too often American's look to applaud mediocrity as a way to rationalize our current situation. The fact is: other nations are doing more to prepare their students for the GLOBAL world, we as Americans continue to focus on micro societal issues and failing to see expanded issues.

[Humanoid]

Oh, you hate public universities too. Nice. How's the weather up there on your high horse?

When did I say this? Most of the teachers had degrees from Cal-states. If you didn't know there is two public school systems in California, the UC system and the Cal-state system. With the exception of Cal Poly, the Cal-states are rather so-so schools. The big difference is that the UCs are research universities and the cal-states aren't.

Have you ever set foot in a community college? Ever sat through a class in one?

Yes and Yes.

Not to mention that his statements are based on feelings, not actual statistics or first hand knowledge.

I haven't really tried to justify what I've said, so how you could know this is beyond me.

1) You said that colleges won't allow older student matriculations. I showed they do. Find some that don't or admit you are wrong.

I already explained my position here. In most cases its de facto disallowed due to the application requirements. This isn't something easy to prove so well I'm not going to bother. You are free to disagree.

You said are "special programs" are often not the same and only offer a particular set of degree options. Prove it.

Again, not easy to prove. This would require going to each site and quoting a description of their "special program". In many cases they are extension programs and aren't the same as general enrollment.

You said "many schools don't deal with transfers from community college." Find me ONE that explicitly excludes community colleges, as opposed to all transfers.

You are now asking me to justify something I didn't even say, I never claimed that many schools disallow community college transfers while allowing other transfers. I simply said they don't deal with transfers from community college.

Anyhow, I didn't read anything below these points.

You seem to have this odd idea that if you post your opinion on a forum, you are obligated in some way to fully justify it. In general I'm perfectly happy justifying my position when it can be done easily, but in this case doing so would be difficult. Additionally, I don't really care whether you agree with me or not so perhaps you'll just have to deal with the fact that some people have different views than you?

[akorosdc]

[quote=jps-teacher;4989256]I listed a bunch of top colleges and universities from your precious ranking system (8 of the top 16), and provided information that disputes your contention. It supports my contention that older students are NOT excluded from good colleges, nor are Community College transfers.
[\quote]

There is a difference between technically admitting a certain group of students and them actually being accepted. I find it hard to believe that a college would explicitly refuse to admit older students or community college transfers. However, is there any sort of data on the actual difficulty for a CC student to get into another school (i.e. # accepted vs. # applied)? For instance, on paper my college accepted transfers from community colleges, however when it came to actual applicants very few ever made it in. This included students who attended my school for a year or two, transferred to CC to finish out the basic gen ed courses, and then tried to transfer back. Those who did make it in often ended up taking an extra year since many of the courses didn't transfer.

I'm not saying you're wrong or right, just curious based on what I've seen elsewhere. I do know that requirements for AP or IB credit are tougher, and many times will at most transfer as an "elective" instead of an actual course.

[seattlenextyear]

I'm not saying you're wrong or right, just curious based on what I've seen elsewhere. I do know that requirements for AP or IB credit are tougher, and many times will at most transfer as an "elective" instead of an actual course.[/quote]

Transfer track courses taken at a CC should transfer anywhere within that state, and usually beyond. If you take anything lower than a transfer track class, the credits might not transfer for degree requirements. Sometimes they satisfy the "120 credits" needed for graduation, but won't, say, help you with your distribution.

Most twice-transferring students who couldn't make it past their first 1-2 semesters at a 4-year school don't finish a degree on time because the initial failing classes at the 4-year school costs them time. The CC helps them get back on track.

[seattlenextyear]

In any case, my husband just told me:

"Don't bother arguing with internet.
It has more free time than you."

[anadyr21]

At least in the sciences there are two types of community college teachers, ones with a passion for teaching and therefore accept the lower pay and those that essentially failed as researchers and have little other options. Unfortunately the latter sort is more common. Anyhow, you'll learn far more about a field by doing research with a professor than you will in a classroom.

Or 3)didn't want a life of publish or perish, 4)decided that the life of an MD wasn't for them, 5)no matter how much research and publications the person did, just couldn't get that elusive R1 position, 6)are geographically limited and cannot or will not move. I can't speak for California, but I've met MDs and scientists who've graduated from top schools and actually chosen to be in a CC.
Not all science majors at a 4 year undergrad get to do research during the school year. That's what interships during the summer are for.

I'm not talking about "clubs and societies". Community colleges don't fund research and the full time teachers are essentially full time lectures. They aren't given any time to do research. The environment is bunch different than a research university.

This is true for the sciences, but why would a theater major need to do scientific research? And why would someone who wants to be a respiratory tech have to do research unless they wanted to?

I just looked at the local community college's website, the majority of the "professors" have degrees from local public universities. What is the surprise?

Why is professor in quotation marks? If they have a PhD, or even an MS with enough experience to warrant the title professor, why are you looking down on them? You must be one hell of an elitist.