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I'm not so sure when it comes to values. In the adult world, some people take every single sick day they have coming to them, sometimes calling them "mental health" days. Others come in when they should stay home. And so forth.
What is there to be confused about exactly? There are many schools that don't allow community college transfers or only allow them as space is available (that is from freshman/Sophomore drop outs). Which Ivy League are you talking about? Some of the Ivy Leagues will allow transfers, but the space is very limiting and well...they are going to pick kids from better schools first.
I think its great the community colleges exist, for some its the only option either due to finances or past choices. It essentially allows people to get a "fresh start". But, at least to me this doesn't translate into being an "excellent option", its only excellent for those that have no longer options. The teaching is better, how did you determine that?
Anyhow, the teaching isn't the only issue either. At research university you can get involved in a number of things that don't exist on community college campuses, not only that you have much longer to form important relationships.
Anyhow, I wouldn't recommend anybody go to a community college unless they have to.
I'd love to see a list of universities that don't accept community college transfers. I believe that list would be quite short.
Most community colleges have transfer programs and work with nearby universities to make sure that their introductory courses match. They use the same book, same labs, etc. They are set up so that for many majors, you'll have a lot of the distribution requirements done when you walk into the 4-year school. They have transfer councilors, and really do all they can to help the students succeed in their transfer.
Teaching at community colleges is most definitely at a higher standard than many Research 1 schools. I've been witnessing the interview process for both types of schools and they're so different. For one, at a community college, the candidates actually have to demonstrate teaching ability, either through a demonstration. The questions at these interviews are aimed at weeding out candidates who aren't familiar with current pedagogy. If you don't know anything about active, student-centered learning, if you rely on powerpoints to give your lectures, or if you don't know anything about learning styles, you won't get a job at one. By contrast, a Research 1 interview doesn't require a teaching demo, and there are virtually no questions about teaching other than "What courses can you teach". Large university professors avoid teaching as much as they can, as they see it as getting in the way of their research. This is expected, since it is a small part of their overall job. Teaching is the most important part of a community college professor's job.
Also, for me, the teaching at my community college was much better than the "teaching" I'm seeing at the large state university that I'm currently at.
I'm glad I picked a community college. It most definitely was not the "only option" for me, as I did well in high school. It made sense financially though, since I was middle class and didn't want to incur huge student debt. I graduated with my bachelors debt free.
By going to both a community college and then an 4-year university, I got the best of both worlds. A small, student-centered environment when I needed it most: my Freshman and Sophmore years. And I got to take my more advanced courses and get involved in undergraduate research at an Ivy league school. All for the cost of 2 years.
Anyways, this rant is off-topic and I'm sorry to use up so much space. Its just that so many people dismiss community colleges as being substandard when it simply isn't true.
They most certainly don't (accept transfers from Community Colleges) in many cases. Obviously each university has a different policy, but in general the good universities don't allow it where as the local state school often does. And yes, by "good" I'm primarily referring to rankings. The rankings pretty accurately pick up which universities are good, of course I'm sure you'll right an hour long post about it.
The old student has two options 1.) Going to a CC and transferring, 2.) Trying to matriculate directly into an university. Both options are going to be limiting to the student. My point is simply that for the plumber, some doors are closed and others are much harder to get open than they would have been otherwise.
Your "point" is unsupported and, as far as I know, simply wrong.
You reiterated: "They most certainly don't in many cases." and "in general the good universities don't allow it."
Evidence? "We don't need no stinking evidence!"
College..........CC Transfers excluded?..........Admissions for Older Students?
Harvard.....no transfers at all for 2 years..........Yes - actively recruiting
Yale......................No...................... ....Yes - special admissions program
Princeton.........No transfers at all........................No restrictions
Dartmouth.............No.......................... .............No restrictions
Brown...................No........................ ...Yes - special admissions program
MIT......................No....................... ................No restrictions
Stanford...............No......................... ...............Yes, explicitly
U Chicago.............No............................ ............No restrictions
Mt. Holyoke...........No............................Ye s - special admissions program
Smit....................No........................ .....Yes - special admissions program
Wellesley..............No......................... ...Yes - special admissions program
*****************
So, when you say "the good universities don't allow it," exactly which universities are you talking about?
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Originally Posted by Humanoid
What is there to be confused about exactly? There are many schools that don't allow community college transfers or only allow them as space is available (that is from freshman/Sophomore drop outs). Which Ivy League are you talking about? Some of the Ivy Leagues will allow transfers, but the space is very limiting and well...they are going to pick kids from better schools first.
As I pointed out before, the community college argument applies to all community college students, not just the older ones - and since you are dead wrong about the "good universities" not taking them, your community college initial point is moot, as well as being dead wrong, too.
Your revised point, which is that space is limited for Ivy transfers, is true - but it is true for ALL transfers, and they will choose the BEST STUDENTS, as far as they can tell. This is not exactly news. ANY Ivy applicant will have a better chance applying as a freshman than as a transfer. Nobody said otherwise.
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Originally Posted by Humanoid
Let me ask you, what other career advice resources? If your parents don't know anything and the people in the school are incompetent where do you go? This is not to mention that most students aren't going to search the global for good advice.
No argument that most students won't search the globe for good advice. Most of them won't even check the resources the school does have, whether or not those resources suck.
However, there is this remarkable resource that existed even way back when you were in high school called... The Library!
In it, there are (and were) guides to careers, decent projections of which fields are growing and shrinking, what education or experience is needed for various jobs, and a variety of other materials that the Librarian would be (or would have been) happy to help you to find and examine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid
I'm sure you'll right an hour long post
Yes, I did. At least one thing you wrote in your post was accurate. Congratulations! Of course, the word is "write," not "right," but when one is hasty in one's writing, that happens.
If a writer is going to make ostensibly factual statements, then sometimes it takes a while to research them before posting. And... having done the research to counter a fatuous and fallacious post, I thought I would put the facts out for others to see, as I don't expect you to either admit you were wrong or to provide counter-evidence.
You may, instead, insist you are right and that you had and still have no intention of substantiating your claims.
Then again, you think the US News and World Report puts out a "pretty accurate" ranking of colleges.
Last edited by jps-teacher; 08-24-2008 at 06:53 PM..
Reason: spacing
On the formal subject of education in this country, its history presents us with some critical points of reason. Many people fail to remember that it wasn't so long ago that education was considered a luxury, (and even more so for higher education). The "formality" of our schools has certainlly changed, and also the values and reasons for certain Universities to exist. The 60's and 70's represented a explosion of interest in the "college" experience, as stereotyped by media at large. I believe, it was at this critical point that America lost sight of what "higher educaiton" really means. Instead of acheivement, we applaud mediocrity, and scratch our heads as to why America is falling behind in the world. To many, college no longer represents vigorus study and examiniation of critical thinking, but sadly many kids live for the "experience" of finally breaking away from home, and having no responsibilities. While there are are many who do have serious attitudes towards their futures, the many who give the "college student" their sterotypical appearnce in society have solidified what we now know as "college".
So is it fair to argue that we need "scrapping" of our education system rather than a shift in our model of thinking?
I think its great the community colleges exist, for some its the only option either due to finances or past choices. It essentially allows people to get a "fresh start". But, at least to me this doesn't translate into being an "excellent option", its only excellent for those that have no longer options. The teaching is better, how did you determine that?
Anyhow, the teaching isn't the only issue either. At research university you can get involved in a number of things that don't exist on community college campuses, not only that you have much longer to form important relationships.
Anyhow, I wouldn't recommend anybody go to a community college unless they have to.
This is bogus. There are some CCs in which yes, for a large percentage of students, due to lack of finances, bad choices, or atypical choices in life, a CC is the best option. I see this more often in urban and rural areas. But in suburban areas of large, metropolitan cities, there are quite a few students whose choices in life were just fine. Some already have 4 year degrees and are now looking for a new or better career without breaking the bank. Others are fresh out of high school and want to go into a career that only requires 2 years of schooling or an associates degree. Others only need the 2 years of core classes in order to get into a rad tech, respiratory tech, or nursing programs, all of which can lead to great jobs with good pay. CCs are also a way for those who already have 4 year degrees to get their science requirements to apply to med school or pharmacy school. Guess what? Some of them do get into med school.
Also, you must not have a lot of actual knowledge about what goes on at a CC, but there are clubs and societies to join, students can write and edit their own school newspapers, some can get involved in scientific research and yes, some have gotten their work published, and depending on the professor, there are field trips to archeological digs or chiropractic schools to perform dissections on cadavers, as well as study abroad programs to Asia, Latin America, and Europe. Some schools have Homecomings, step shows, and parties. Students and professors give recitals and have art showings and theater presentations.
Also, are you suggesting the teaching is subpar? Are you aware of the credentials of community college professors? You might be surprised.
Seriously, everything you've said about community colleges are wrong, wrong, wrong.
I do know that one of the largest community colleges in the metro Denver area has many part-time teachers who do not get benefits. This policy limits the number of people who can take the job.
Upon which country should US model its education system?
Many countries w/supposedly superior HS education systems mysteriously lack notable engineering schools or undergraduate finance schools....
Some countries like India w/notable engineering undergrad schools like IIT have yet to develop competent graduate engineering schools....and, for past some 40yrs, the top ?50% of IIT's graduates have chosen to emigrate to Stanford/Berkeley/MIT, etc for grad school; established careers in US....and nearly none have chosen to leave US....many IIT alums have become SiliconValley centimillionaires/billionaires, and many have built productive careers in US in various arenas, adding to US leadership in many areas of tech....
No other nation has produced as many new, valuable tech cos. and hedge funds as has US...creating significant net worth for founders at a relatively young age....
And many founders of valuable tech cos. like Microsoft, Google, Apple, etc are college dropouts or Stanford CS/EE PhD dropouts....so raises many questions re: role and value of any HS/university education....I suspect the laissez-faire approach of US society vs education....and willingness to import smartest kids every yr from across world is most productive strategy, rather than regimented or protectionist approaches....
Perhaps the most relevant leading indicator of quality of an education system (and economy) is, where does a smart, industrious, poor/middle-class kid from Cleveland/Dallas/London/Munich/Chindia, etc choose to migrate to pursue his post-HS education and career....and why?
Its just that so many people dismiss community colleges as being substandard when it simply isn't true.
You are free to believe whatever you like, but I think at least here in California the Community colleges are substandard. Citing that community colleges hire based on teaching vs research is actually just the point. At least in the sciences there are two types of community college teachers, ones with a passion for teaching and therefore accept the lower pay and those that essentially failed as researchers and have little other options. Unfortunately the latter sort is more common. Anyhow, you'll learn far more about a field by doing research with a professor than you will in a classroom. But, which Ivy League accepted you?
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ut there are clubs and societies to join, students can write and edit their own school newspapers, some can get involved in scientific research and yes
I'm not talking about "clubs and societies". Community colleges don't fund research and the full time teachers are essentially full time lectures. They aren't given any time to do research. The environment is bunch different than a research university.
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Are you aware of the credentials of community college professors? You might be surprised.
I just looked at the local community college's website, the majority of the "professors" have degrees from local public universities. What is the surprise?
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Evidence? "We don't need no stinking evidence!"
How exactly is a small sample of schools evidence? Furthermore, as I said before some officially allow it but only if space is available. Where as many public universities plan on transfer students (not only that but they have higher drop out rates). Also, "special admissions" programs are often not the same and only offer a particular set of degree options. Additionally, although colleges rarely explicitly deny applications from older students the application requirements are such that if someone has been out of school for 10 years it will be very hard to put together a good application. I looked at a few of the schools admission policies and I didn't see any of them that have special admission policies for non-standard students. Anyhow, much of what I said is de facto the case rather than an official policy of the university.
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and since you are dead wrong about the "good universities" not taking them,
You haven't shown that I'm wrong, instead you've tried to argue deceptively that you are right. Let's take the case of Stanford, I quote:
"Transfer applicants should be aware that transfer admission is considerably more competitive than freshman admission. In recent years, the admit rate for transfer students has been between 1-2%. Between 20 and 40 transfer student spaces are typically available each year, depending on our freshman to sophomore retention rate (usually 98%)"
Public universities accept MANY more transfer students than this, in fact usually thousands a year. So, yes with an admit rate of 1~2% I'm sure your community college students are doing very well. Perhaps, what a couple get in a year? I'm not even going to look at the other schools, because I already know what I'm saying is true. Perhaps you should dig a little deeper?
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n it, there are (and were) guides to careers, decent projections of which fields are growing and shrinking, what education or experience is needed for various jobs, and a variety of other materials that the Librarian would be (or would have been) happy to help you to find and examine.
Are you serious? Your typical kid isn't even going to know what jobs are out there, so what are they going to look up? Are they going to read a book of with brief descriptions of all possible careers? That isn't going to be particular useful. No book is going to substitute the sort of information you can get about a field from someone that has a passion from it. This is not to mention, the student is unlikely to even know what he is good at. Giving career advice is not easy, you have to try and pick the kids brain. Books can't do this. Lastly, many high school students get hmm....poisoned by the incompetence of their teachers. This is exactly what happened to me. I was great a math, but I hated it as not a single teacher I had really understood what mathematics was about nor had a passion for it. Sorta hard to get kids interested in something you yourself aren't interested in.
Last edited by Humanoid; 08-25-2008 at 02:03 AM..
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