We need to completely scrap and change our nations education system. (counselor, scholarships)

[Humanoid]

Each year 1,400 to 1,600 students apply to Stanford for about 70 spots in the junior class

Stanford only accepts between 20-40 transfer students. This is clearly stated on their website. Last year 20 were accepted if 26% is true, only 5 students got into standard in 2007 from community colleges. Is this suppose to refute me?

Well, you lose here, too. Cal Tech, from Fall 2000 to Fall 2005, had 20% more 4 year transfer applicants, but 20% fewer transfer admissions!

Not at all, you are interesting not reporting the raw numbers just percentages. Cal tech over a fire year period has accepted 31 transfers from Community College and a total of 95. So, a lucky 6 people get to transfer to cal tech from community college a year. Wow! Clearly they are actively taking in community college transfers. So, much for your great counter-example.

Los Angeles are making concerted efforts to recruit community college students in their states.

UCLA has always accepted transfers in large numbers, in fact the entire UC system does. Unlike many private schools they aren't just trying to fill stops from dropouts. UC Berkeley and UCLA are probably the best universities that accept community college tranfers actively, but they are biased (for good reason) towards transfers from California community colleges. Guess how many transfers enrolled into UCLA in 2007? 2,989
given considering UCLA is a large school this number is vastly larger than your not so...counter counter-examples. And by the way, only 14 where out of state! The difference between a school that actively accepts transfer students and a school that does it here and there to fill space is much different.

EDIT: The 2,989 figure is for transfers in general, the the vast majority of these are CC transfers.

Anyhow, I really don't even know what your point is anymore. Your own examples demonstrate my point. Oddly, the only thing you've done on this thread is attack people for stating their view about the education system. Even more odd you aren't even consistent. You attack stan4, yet you essentially said the same thing about career advice. Its actually a bit funny.

[jps-teacher]

The parentheses hold the number of students who will be matriculating at each of these institutions from one single community college this fall:

Babson College (1), Bard College (1), Boston University (1), Clark University (1), Cooper Union (2), Cornell University (5),Fordham University (2), Georgetown University (1), Iona College (2), London College of Fashion (1), Manhattan College (2), Manhattanville College (1), New York University (4), Pace University (2), Quinnipiac University (1), Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (1), St. Thomas Aquinas (1), Temple University (1), University of Massachusetts (1), University of Miami (1), University of Pennsylvania (1), University of Wisconsin (1), SUNY/Binghamton University (5), SUNY/Stony Brook University (3), SUNY at Albany (1), SUNY at Buffalo (1), CUNY Baruch College (5)

Sure, they are not all "good" colleges in the sense of being at the top of one or another of the US News lists. Many of them are, though - 11 tier one universities and colleges.

[jps-teacher]

Originally Posted by Humanoid

Anyhow, I really don't even know what your point is anymore. Your own examples demonstrate my point.

Only because with every post, your point changes.

First, they would not allow community college transfers at all.

Then, well, perhaps their policies did (though you still use language to suggest it is not so), but they 'de facto' exclude them during the admissions process.

Oh, wait - if they reject [i]all[i] transfers, then you are right - and if they take more community college transfers than 4 year college transfers, but they take few of each, then you are still right.

UCLA takes a lot of transfers? Well, they always have. That just proves my point again, says Humanoid! (So what if NOW there is an explicit effort to take more community college transfers!)

"UC Berkeley and UCLA are probably the best universities that accept community college transfers actively." So, 2 of the top 25 colleges actively take transfer students from community colleges, in even in your opinion. Let's go for 3!

25% of Cornell undergrads are transfers and a third of those are from community colleges? And they actively seek them? Well, that just proves your next point, I am sure. Must not count.

Your point was that community college was a dead end for older students. The good colleges wouldn't take them directly and they wouldn't take them by transfer.

Your point was wrong before. It is still wrong now.

But I do appreciate your actively looking stuff up, finally! (I thought the Caltech figures would do it. Mind you, 5 students is 2.5% of all new students each year. But you won't get what the point of that is, either.)

[Humanoid]

Your point was wrong before. It is still wrong now.

I have never stated once that every good school disallows community college transfers officially or otherwise. Not once. As a result showing some counter-examples doesn't refute me. I know perfectly well how the UC system here in California deals with community college transfers. But this is not the norm, additionally its for the most part only available to Californians. Nor did I state that community college is a dead end for older students, rather I stated that their options are limited. Again, you've created a straw man.

Additionally, my claim actually never changed. I clarified my position to make it clear I was talking de facto restrictions in addition to official policies. The fact that Stanford only accepted 5 transfers from community college is a pretty good indication that they have a de facto policy against such transfers. Similarly for your Cal tech example. Likewise for the many other Ivy Leagues that accept little to no transfer students (both CC or otherwise).

But, the straw men are getting old. So whatever your point is...you are completely correct. The education system is great.

[jps-teacher]

On to your false claims about the "special programs" for older students. You said that they are "often not the same and only offer a particular set of degree options." This was pretty interesting since you immediately after that noted that you had seen no such programs at the few colleges at whose sites you had looked.

I mentioned 6 universities and colleges that had programs for older students:
Yale, Brown, and Columbia are Ivies. Mount Holyoke (MHC), Smith, and Wellesley are 7 Sisters.

Brown: "Each year, a small number of students either 25 years of age or older, or who have not studied at a high school or college for the previous five years, are admitted to Brown through the Resumed Undergraduate Education Program (RUE). Students accepted into the program plan on completing a college degree at Brown. Because RUE students often have full-time jobs or family obligations, they may be granted permission to study part-time at Brown and live off-campus." "Students apply for admission to the RUE Program when they apply for admission to the University. Admitted RUE students participate in the standard orientation activities for incoming students along with special sessions that address RUE student needs. Each RUE student is assigned an academic advisor who assists them in constructing a course of study that will lead to degree completion."

The same degree program, though with permission to be part time already in place. Sometimes the same housing, sometimes not.

Columbia: This is, perhaps, the most alternative of the 6 programs I've seen so far. Rather than applying to the specific program, but being a part of the same degree program, Columbia offers the School of General Studies. However, it is important to note that this is not their continuing education wing, or "Columbia Evening Extension Program."

"The School of General Studies of Columbia University is the finest liberal arts college in the United States created specifically for students with nontraditional backgrounds seeking a rigorous, traditional, Ivy League undergraduate degree full or part-time."

"The School of General Studies welcomes applications from transfer students. In fact, 78 percent of our 2006 entering class transferred credit to Columbia. There is no separate application procedure for transfer students."

"GS students take the same courses with the same faculty, are held to the same high standards, and earn the same degree as all other Columbia undergraduates. The School of General Studies is an undergraduate liberal arts college offering more than 70 majors."

"GS students live in university owned apartments, usually shares, versus dormitory housing." - A housing difference, and the housing is determined by how far away one is from."

The application process is different. The courses and the degree are the same.

MHC's Frances Perkins program has ~140 students, age 24 and older, each year, "to earn a first-rate degree that meets all the requirements of the undergraduate program." "49 established majors to choose from," which is the same number, oddly enough, for the regular undergrads! Average age of an FP = 31. "In 2007-08, 84% of the women in the undergraduate program attended a community college prior to entering Mount Holyoke."

Oh, look - community college attendees! How radical.

Smith: "Approximately 200 women (are) currently enrolled in the Ada Comstock Scholars Program. Ada Comstock Scholars attend the same classes as traditional undergraduates." They also choose from the same majors and often live in the same dorms, though they often live off campus, just as the regular undergrads often do.

Wellesley: "The Davis Degree Program gives women beyond traditional college age the opportunity to participate fully in a Wellesley College education. They take the same classes as other students, participate in the same organizations and activities, and, if they choose, live on campus along with students of traditional college age." "Approximately one-fourth of the current students are in their twenties, and approximately one-fifth are over forty." "The same opportunities for study abroad are available for Davis Scholars as for traditional-age students." "Davis Scholars complete the same academic degree requirements and receive the same degree as traditional-age Wellesley students. The only exception is the Physical Education requirement, from which Davis Scholars are exempt."

Ooh! An except is made for them. Clearly, the program is less worthwhile, then!

Yale: "The standards for admission to the degree-granting Eli Whitney program will be equivalent to those applied to candidates for regular admission to Yale College, which involve expectations of both exceptional achievement and exceptional promise. In assessing more mature candidates, relatively more weight is given to achievement, including engagement with career and community, than potential.

In considering candidates for admission, the selection committee will also weigh evidence that an applicant displays competence across disciplines, particularly in writing and quantitative reasoning, at the level of typical Yale freshmen." "Students enrolled in the Eli Whitney Students program may undertake study outside the United States for a full academic year or for either a fall or a spring term." "Candidates for a bachelor's degree must fulfill the requirements of one of the major programs listed in chapter IV (of the Academic Regulations book for ALL students, including the EW students).

"if you are a Eli Whitney Student you may take any course offered, provided prerequisites are fulfilled and you are otherwise qualified. Some courses are limited in enrollment or require the permission of the instructor, but you will be treated in these cases on an equal basis with other Yale undergraduates." "Students in the Eli Whitney program are not eligible for undergraduate housing and they may not serve as freshman counselors."

So, no housing - this is the only substantial difference for an EW student.

*************

6 programs at 6 "good" colleges and universities. None of them will "only offer a particular set of degree options." They are as much the same as housing (and bodies) will permit, in terms of the courses and degrees.

Find me an except to this, go ahead!

[Humanoid]

Oh geez...still on this! You are so right adults that want to continue their education face no obstacles, I was absolutely silly to suggest otherwise.

[jps-teacher]

Originally Posted by Humanoid

my claim actually never changed. I clarified my position...

Right. It wasn't a change, just a clarification. It depends on what your definition of "is" is.

On older folks going to a good university, your points were:

"Most good universities don't allow non-standard matriculations

which changed to

although colleges rarely explicitly deny applications from older students the application requirements are such that if someone has been out of school for 10 years it will be very hard to put together a good application.

With this, on the subject of programs at those types of colleges for those types of students:

"special admissions" programs are often not the same and only offer a particular set of degree options.

On community colleges, your points were:

going to a community college can put you at a great disadvantage in many cases

and

many schools don't deal with transfers from community college

which later got "clarified" as "de facto" exclusion, rather than the claim that they don't deal with them

...for the plumber, some doors are closed and others are much harder to get open than they would have been otherwise.

and

So, although its possible to go back to school your options are greatly restricted.

1) Most, if not all, good colleges allow non-standard matriculations to the same degree that they allow standard matriculations, by both explicit policy and de facto process. There is no evidence to support that "most good universities don't allow" these students.

2) Many good universities explicitly seek non-standard matriculations. Some that do have special programs for them.

3) The special programs include taking the same courses toward the same degrees. There is no evidence that "most special programs are not the same and only have limited degree options."

3a) If the programs for non-traditional students at "good" universities and colleges are of the same quality as those for the 18-22 year olds, then doors have not closed there, nor have they gotten harder to go through, if we assume the student would have been able to go through them to start with - and sometimes easier, as I have previously stated, because some folks settle down over time and can finally focus at 25-30 in ways they could not at 15-20.

4) To claim that the student's difficulty in putting together a good application is even slightly the college's excluding them is ridiculous.

5) If the transfer odds are the same out of community college old or young, then nothing changed - no doors got closed there and it is no harder than it was.

6) If transfer admissions are at roughly the same rate (slightly higher here, slightly lower there), and where they are minuscule or none, so too are transfers from the 4 year colleges, then there is no "disadvantage?"
********

My argument is and was that your voice of doom about the prospects of older students who have not previously gone to college is erroneous.

Are you in politics?

[jps-teacher]

Originally Posted by Humanoid

Oh geez...still on this! You are so right adults that want to continue their education face no obstacles, I was absolutely silly to suggest otherwise.

If that had been what you said, it would be a bit different.

But, again, that's not it.

Still on it, because you were still spinning fables pretending to be facts. We found ONE university that "doesn't deal with" community college transfers. The rest take them, even if they only take a few (which I granted 20 posts ago). So, now your point is that they don't take many.

You've never changed your story.

You're always right. And all the evidence supports you perfectly, if only we look at it the right way.

Whatever, Humanoid.

[Humanoid]

If that had been what you said, it would be a bit different.

This is what I said initially, "So, although its possible to go back to school your options are greatly restricted". You decided to attack the trees instead of the forest. The exact percentage of good universities that openly admit (i.e., not just a handful a year) adult students was never my point. Whether its 90%, 51% or 40% really doesn't matter to me. Which schools do and do not actively admit (again, more than just a handful) transfer students from community college was likewise not my point. In fact, in some states (like California) this isn't even a big obstacle given the excellent UC system. Yet, the system isn't particularly friendly to adult students and in an economy that is changing so fast that is a big problem.

Oddly, you think quoting headlines establishes to what degree universities accept adult students among other things Its like watching fox news or something.

[jps-teacher]

Originally Posted by Humanoid

This is what I said initially, "So, although its possible to go back to school your options are greatly restricted".

Right.

That's the sum and total of what you said.

I'm convinced.

Goodbye.