Joe the Plumber (Democrats, racist, revolution, McCain)

[brattpowered]

I thought I would get in on the bandwagon and start thread #10 on Joe the Plumber.

1. Do you think he is a plant?

2. Is it fair for the corporate media to endear the public to a McCain supporter but not an Obama supporter?

3. Is Joe's appeal enough to carry the McCain campaign for 2 weeks or will they have to adopt another human interest story or go back to 100% bashing before the election is over?

[katzenfreund]

Please stick to the TOPIC, do not make comments about other members. People can disagree on topics, but be civil to each other.

[InformedConsent]

That same line of thinking - that some have achieved too much and therefore it's not 'fair' - is exactly what's dumbing down our kids in our public school systems, too. Many schools refuse to group students by skill/achievement level and insist on mixed-ability classrooms where the curriculum is aimed at the low-middle because that is the level at which the majority in the mixed-ability class can achieve.

Professor Dan Singal analyzes what happened, why it happened, and the consequences (keep in mind that this article was written before the SAT had to be recentered in 1995 - making scores higher than they would have been - because SAT scores have been consistently declining), lengthy, but important to read to find out why this has happened and how some schools have bucked the trend...

"While students in the bottom quartile have shown slow but steady improvement since the 1960s, average test scores have nonetheless gone down, primarily because of the performance of those in the top quartile. This "highest cohort of achievers," Rudman writes, has shown "the greatest declines across a variety of subjects as well as across age-level groups." Analysts have also found "a substantial drop among those children in the middle range of achievement," he continues, "but less loss and some modest gains at the lower levels." In other words, our brightest youngsters, those most likely to be headed for selective colleges, have suffered the most dramatic setbacks over the past two decades--a fact with grave implications for our ability to compete with other nations in the future.
The Other Crisis in American Education - 91.11 (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/educatio/singalf.htm - broken link)

And, Joann DiGenarro of the Center for Excellence in Education (which works in collaboration with MIT) has this to say about what's happeneing to academic talent in our schools:

The ugly secret is that our most talented students are falling through the cracks. Not one program of such major governmental agencies as the National Institutes of Health, the National Science Foundation or NASA specifically targets the top 5 percent of students who have demonstrated academic excellence and have the greatest potential for becoming our inventors, creators and groundbreaking scientists. An international assessment of math problem-solving skills of 15-year-olds in 2004, along with more recent studies, found that the United States had the fewest top performers and the largest percentage of low performers compared with other participating countries. By the time students reach 12th grade in math and science, they are near the bottom or dead last compared with international competition, according to the Education Department.
Joann DiGennaro - Gifted Minds We Need to Nurture - washingtonpost.com

What happens when you refuse to encourage and nourish excellence is that you get exactly what we have now, a rising tide of mediocrity - not a world class educated populace or a world class economy.

"Our nation is at risk. The educational foundations of our society are presently being eroded by a rising tide of mediocrity. If an unfriendly foreign power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war. We have, in effect, been committing an act of unthinking, unilateral educational disarmament. History is not kind to idlers." - A Nation At Risk, 1983.

[highdesertmutz]

Sometimes small business owners do take on side jobs. yes, some take cash and don't report it, do you think this is something new?
My advocations? if a back yard mechanic can fix my '63 chevy the same as the garage mechanic can for less $$$, he'll be allowed to fix my car. and, you see a problem with that?
how about this? I was propositioned by a local garage that the mechanic could fix my car for less than what he'd charge during normal business hours, just drop it off after 5, or, a plumber said he'd fix my pipe for cash, and less $$$ after 5, they've got my vote, I want to save money, so, what's wrong with that? I want him to make extra $$$$ because he's supporting a family with 5 mouths to feed, you see that as illegal activity? I see it as helping my neighbor, and my friend.
I haven't violated any terms of service at city-data, but you sir, have. this is why your posts were removed, you've made slanderous remarks to persons other than myself, all I asked you to do was to please stop it. so, now you're on another fishing trip, trying to have my posts removed because you think I have violated city-data's terms of service, please stop trying to twist things around, and please post in the manner in which you're supposed to. everyone has an opinion of how small businesses should or could be run, I'm suggesting that small business owners can make extra cash in other ways, and you have a different pitch to it.
In the event you haven't looked outside lately, Americans are struggling finacially, and helping your neighbor any way you can to get through this crisis makes you more of a person, than less.

Originally Posted by NewMexicanRepublican

You stated "shrewd owners can take side jobs for cash" in a discussion about small business owners and taxes.

If I misunderstood, please clarify the intent of your statement. To me, it seems clear that you are advocating that they could work under the table, for cash, and not pay taxes on those side jobs. Promoting illegal activities is a violation of the TOS here, as well as illegal in NM, and you are concerned about my comments.

If that is not the case, let us know. Please clarify.

[belovenow]

1) Typically a business which earns 250k per year has enough tax write-offs to get it way down into much lower tax brackets. I thus would argue that a business earning 1,000,000+ per year in revenue might find itself paying in the 250k/39% per year proposed tax bracket but hardly any smaller businesses would.
2) Just as businesses can, smart individuals with tax accountants (or knowledge of tax law) with personal incomes of 250k probably know how to get their taxable income much lower through write-offs. I would argue that until you're earning up to or in excess of 500,000+ finding yourself in the 250k/39% per year proposed tax bracket is very unlikely for the vast majority of the US citizens out there.

Once people realize those taxation truths, Obama's plan doesn't seem nearly as bad. The reality is that wealthy people and corporate financial officers (or tax accountants) know how to reduce taxable income significantly. Even middle class folks like my wife and I figured out how this can be done at much lower income levels. If you're not finding ways to decrease taxable income (using write-offs, etc), then you're just wasting money in my book.

Most certainly very wealthy and medium-sized businesses will be taxed more under Obama, but the entire middle class and even lower-affluent class will not see a real change in anything. I really find it amazing that some multi-millionaires out there today can be so crass as to oppose Obama on this point alone. If you have millions (or billions) in the bank and in annual income, you are essentially set for life already. How much is enough? Is another percent or two of government taxes really going to disrupt your lifestyle?

To oppose taxation by the government altogether is one thing. But to support taxation and also push the majority of taxation responsibility upon those who are not set for life, who have yet to realize the American Dream, while the economic class divide increases and the middle class disappears is just irrational.

I really don't know who Joe the plumber really is. What I do know is that:

1) A business which earns 250k per year in taxable income probably costs a small fortune to purchase. Joe the plumber must be doing quite alright for himself to be planning to do this.

2) It is a shame that Joe the plumber's opinion is being held up as the end all be all of how the rest of America should judge Obama's or McCain's tax plans. The truth is that the US needs more high paying or at least middle class income paying jobs and the only way to achieve that will be to a) put a stopper in offshore outsourcing of US jobs, b) bring back old or develop new industries based in the US. I doubt Joe the plumber has any concept of this since plumbing isn't exactly something which can be outsourced. Additionally, Joe hasn't even purchased nor started his own business yet. He thus has zero credentials in my book to be taken seriously as a small business tax advisor. What does he actually know? He doesn't work for himself, and as far as I know he never has. He has a lot to learn and shouldn't be in the spotlight at all regarding this election. I don't care about his opinion on this topic, and neither should you.

[Awesomo.2000]

Good God people. Taxing the upper class over the Middle class is not Socialism. Do you guys even know what a Socialistic goverment is?

[sanrene]

How could he be a plant? Obama went door-to-door in this guys neighborhood, stopping to answer questions from voters - it's all on tape.

Weren't you saying how cool it was that Obama was going door to door, getting out the vote?

[geeoro]

Here is a link to Bob Wurzelbacher ( relative to Joe)being involved with Charles Keating. http://www.stewwebb.com/Junk%20Bond%...ew%20Webb.html
I have copied some of the ties OF Bob Wurzelbacher to Keating as it is a long report.
[SIZE=4] [/SIZE]
KEY TO ABBREVIATIONS
AL Andy Ligget
CKII Charles Keating, Jr.
CIII Charles Keating, III
JB Jed Brunst
JG Jim Grogan
JW Judy Wischer
LD Larry Dannefeldt
MAV Mark Voigt
AN Niebling
BD Bruce Dickson
BH Bob Hubbard
BW Bob Wurzelbacher
[SIZE=4] [/SIZE]
April 8-9 1987
CKII, MAV, JB, TM, BW, Jor Moroney, Frank Dubasik, Alan Van Loo, Jim Farney & group meets in Denver Re: Forest Lakes, Box Elder, Colorado Tech & West Meadows properties with Knopinski & D. Champion. Also tour Castle Rock.
[SIZE=4] [/SIZE]
Dec. 2, 1987
CKII, CK, Joe Knopinski, Libby Kirschner, MAV, BW, CIII, Van Loo & Jim Farney to Denver for tours of Denver area project
[SIZE=4] [/SIZE]
Feb. 5, 1988
CKII, BW, MV, CE meet in Denver with US West Real Estate Division--Jack McAllister. Jerry Johnson, Chuck Lillis, Howard Doerr, Win Wade, Dick McCormick--re: Estrella Investment.
This is just the tip of this "iceberg".

[bentlebee]

Obama track record is one of the most socialistic of all times, so I can't compare him to Clinton. I would have less issues with Hillary. First of all she doesn't have a lack of judgment as Obama and she has experience.....


What really scares the hellout of me is the trio.

Pelosi, Reid (who really will pull the strings), and Obama!

[Jerseyt719]

Informed Consent - I agree with your post completely.
I have three children and have seen what a lot of the liberal thinking in education has created.

Take a look at "kidspelling" - Kids are allowed to spell words however they think it should be and it is just fine to do so.

This "plan" of the spreading the wealth is basically the same thing - do nothing and yet be rewarded - for what??

So the result, they go through their education spelling as they think it should be and then are told one week in their entire educational career that it is wrong and they need to spell it right by the end of the week or they will get it wrong on their "word study" test. After that week, it's ok again.