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Before getting into responding to individual posts, a point of clarification.
Defining conservative; This "ill measured indignation" was shaped solely by the tone and tenor of self-described "conservatives" who have offered their opinions on City-Data. I have granted myself the same liberties when using the term "conservative" the same liberties taken by "conservatives" when defining who is or who isn't a socialist. Clearly my definition of who is or who isn't a conservative, hasn't been based upon the classical definition or upon a historical understanding of conservatism, which I do understand. It is based upon the abject abortion of the term as it has been applied by most of the prominent self-described "conservative" here on City-Paper.
If this has offended Conservatives, so be it, because by any standard - and as several posters have pointed out - principles of true conservatism can be found in both the Republican and Democratic Party and their mutual nominees. For example one of the hallmarks of modern American conservatism has been the issue of personal responsibility, Obama has given speech after speech about the need for personal responsibility.
Another, from a true leftist position. is Obama's clear reliance in the capitalist system of economics as has been practiced in the US for more than 75 years. In post after post, I have asked "conservative" accusers to point out where Obama differs from previous administrations in the most basic principles of a mix economic system, I have read nothing. I have asked what school of socialism Obama belongs to. I have go so far as to list every major socialist trend and theorist and to date I have read nothing in response.
If you are insulted about how I loosely define, conservatism, call me when you are equally offended about the abuse of the term socialism.
Now For the Individual Responses:
perhouse
"Yep. It's not that Obama is a better candidate. It's just the shift in political winds because of 8 years of lies, betrayals, and no accountability."
Ah, the view from the left. How ironic...
During the beginning of the Montgomery bus boycott, Martin Luther King, who to that point hadn't been involved, said, "There go my people, I need to catch up." In many ways that is the mark of a great leader, one who sees where the political winds are blowing, gets ahead of them and helps to guide them. This is where Hillary failed. This is what made Obama a superior leader.
"Will the Democrats hold their elected leaders to the fire when they change their minds? Specifically, Obama? Hardly."
No party, is more internally contentious than the Democratic Party. Obama as any community leader fully knows has built a movement, and a movement will turn on its leadership in a dime (even with affection) should its leadership veer off path it has set forth. So, I fully expect, in the proper setting, to call Obama out if and when he does.
"FISA - where's the outrage?"
FISA is the result of outrage, and I do not disagree with its very existence. There are parts of FISA which are vital to our national security. I felt that way prior to Bush and I feel that way now (funny how the political spectrum can blur in the middle). Is it perfect, no, but imperfect laws are apart of the democratic system of legislation.
PreAristotle
"I have just one question for you: Do you even know me?"
You're right, so if I didn't address you by name and the post didn't resemble what you believe, then why are you taking offense?
Jtalk
"Let me get this straight... you people are voting based on revenge?" Already several of you have said or agreed with that A. Obama was NOT the best democratic candidate B. He understands your anger against the neo-cons.... That is the most un-intelligent reason to vote I have ever heard...."
Because, as is often the case you stopped listening.
TnHilltopper
"I think many people confuse the term conservative with Republican and I find that frustrating."
Then I suggest that you take that up with the Republican Party since it and those who identify with it, have hijacked the term and made it there own. If you are being misrepresented then don't blame us for using the term.
"Either Democrats are all wrong and are evil or Republicans are all wrong and evil, when in truth, both are culpable for many of the reasons why America is in the state that it is in. My frustration lay with watching the arguments over degrees of evil when at the same time failing to recognize those evils that reside in their own party.
To the credit of Obama, his message seems to be one of hope and unity, so when I hear such divisive commentary from those who support him, I feel my concerns have foundation."
Perhaps I am wrong but I don't recall you ever operating as a mediating force in these discussions. On more than one occasion I have chastised Obama supporters for irrelevant and divisive comments and threads. But I also have a candidate to defend and as a result, absent being extended the same consideration from "conservatives" one does what one has to do.
There seem to be a number of threads on this board authored by conservatives trying desperately to come up with some rationalization about why folks are voting for Obama. They attempt to explain this political phenomenon on people being "snookered," "hood winked," "mesmerized," operating from some sense of white guilt or black racism. Let me help you to understand, the American people are just sick and tired of you folks and that change that you scoff at is exactly what we want and what we demand.
They say that the first step towards recovery is recognition of your problem, so let me help you with that first step. You have come as close as anyone has come in more than 75 years of destroying this country. You have found a way to pit one part of this nation against another, whether it was race, guns, god or abortion, you have used these issues as a cover for the rape of our environment, the wholesale theft of our national wealth, and the squandering of your young peoples lives.
We've had enough.
Barack Obama was the only candidate within the Democratic Party that understood just how fed up with you people we are. Hillary, god bless her, didn't. She hoped to thread the needle with that finesse we have come to associate with the DLC and we rejected it.
Obama was the least "experienced" candidate on the Democratic side but he was the only candidate, black or white, who captured the sentiment of most Americans, at least those with enough sense to see, and wrapped it with a forward looking plan that we could rally around. That is why he is our candidate. He didn't have to sell us, he just had to understand what we want and develop a plan to get us there.
So as election day approaches, look no more for excuses, or exotic rationals, just look at yourselves in the mirror, reread your posts, look at how your thinking has changed this nation for the worst and there you will find the answer of why we want Barack Obama, quite simply, we are just tired of you.
Your ignorant summation of us conservatives is exactly why you are fed up. Your positions are built on ignorance and lies. You believe in lofty ideas that can never be practical and yet even though it fails over and over again, you are there to try one more time at failure. You ramble over and over about injustice, about your "pursuit" of good and yet every chance you get your suffocate good. Your position isn't new, it has been around since the beginning of man. Your position is usually the calling card just before a society begins to crumble in on itself.
I don't have to guess about why you are voting for Obama, I can read through the numerous documents written by our founders to see your position. They warned us about you, told us what a lethargic nation would lead to. They warned of majority oppression of minority, the will of the people to abuse the government for their own desire. That they would vote for those who promised them favors rather than those who would protect their rights.
Yes, I don't have to guess, I know who you are and you will eventually get your way. When you do though, suffering will begin and others will have to put out great sacrafice to repair your damage. I guess it is need though, for any society to truly respect the freedoms they have, they must be taken to the brink and bleed for their capture. Such is the cycle of life. Freedom that is given, is not respected and we have not earned it, so it is natural that we would abuse it.
Before getting into responding to individual posts, a point of clarification.
Defining conservative; This "ill measured indignation" was shaped solely by the tone and tenor of self-described "conservatives" who have offered their opinions on City-Data. I have granted myself the same liberties when using the term "conservative" the same liberties taken by "conservatives" when defining who is or who isn't a socialist. Clearly my definition of who is or who isn't a conservative, hasn't been based upon the classical definition or upon a historical understanding of conservatism, which I do understand. It is based upon the abject abortion of the term as it has been applied by most of the prominent self-described "conservative" here on City-Paper.
If this has offended Conservatives, so be it, because by any standard - and as several posters have pointed out - principles of true conservatism can be found in both the Republican and Democratic Party and their mutual nominees. For example one of the hallmarks of modern American conservatism has been the issue of personal responsibility, Obama has given speech after speech about the need for personal responsibility.
Another, from a true leftist position. is Obama's clear reliance in the capitalist system of economics as has been practiced in the US for more than 75 years. In post after post, I have asked "conservative" accusers to point out where Obama differs from previous administrations in the most basic principles of a mix economic system, I have read nothing. I have asked what school of socialism Obama belongs to. I have go so far as to list every major socialist trend and theorist and to date I have read nothing in response.
If you are insulted about how I loosely define, conservatism, call me when you are equally offended about the abuse of the term socialism.
Now For the Individual Responses:
I am equally offended and have pointed this out in a few of my comments. While I don't agree with a number of Obama's positions, I know he is no socialist, nor a terrorist sympathizer or any of a dozen or so other ridiculous descriptions. In fact I have even went as far as pointing out that Obama isn't even what I would define as a classic liberal like Dennis Kucinich and is far more to the center than I think many on the right believe.
Quote:
TnHilltopper
"I think many people confuse the term conservative with Republican and I find that frustrating."
Then I suggest that you take that up with the Republican Party since it and those who identify with it, have hijacked the term and made it there own. If you are being misrepresented then don't blame us for using the term.
"Either Democrats are all wrong and are evil or Republicans are all wrong and evil, when in truth, both are culpable for many of the reasons why America is in the state that it is in. My frustration lay with watching the arguments over degrees of evil when at the same time failing to recognize those evils that reside in their own party.
To the credit of Obama, his message seems to be one of hope and unity, so when I hear such divisive commentary from those who support him, I feel my concerns have foundation."
Perhaps I am wrong but I don't recall you ever operating as a mediating force in these discussions. On more than one occasion I have chastised Obama supporters for irrelevant and divisive comments and threads. But I also have a candidate to defend and as a result, absent being extended the same consideration from "conservatives" one does what one has to do.
I have done the same on numerous occasions and have had those same self described "conservatives" deride me when I make the assertion that many if not most Republicans are not what I consider conservative. As much as I make an attempt to point out where I feel these definitions are misused, it usually falls upon deaf ears by most but not all.
If I were happy about and supported what constitutes the right wing of today's politics, I'd still be a member of that club, but I'm not. Those that constitute the more extreme fringes of this area are about to find themselves in an echo chamber and few things please me more.
I am not offended by how you defined things and if I have missed your corrections of others who share your views, then my apologies as it likely stems from the fact that I have huge volumes of posts and threads to review and rarely have time to focus on any single thread, let alone member. Personally, I appreciate any discussion that is above mere shouting points and carried out by folks with an open mind and is one of the reasons I chose to debate in this thread.
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,852 posts, read 10,483,970 times
Reputation: 6671
Seems like alot of the objections to the OP revolve around the complaint that all conservatives and/or Republicans are lately being painted with the same "right wing extremist" brush.
Perhaps so, but the GOP has been exploiting the extremist "base" for its own ends for awhile now, often making them the "front line" in any assault (just look at this Forum!). So much, that to most folks the GOP has basically become indistinguishable from the neo-cons and the extreme right wing.
Have mentioned this in other threads, but I'm convinced the GOP is eventually going to have to distance themselves from the "wingnuts", in order to lose its current image, deserved or not.
Just as the Dems had to do the same thing, after becoming too closely associated with the liberal campus extremists of the 60's that dominated their own party back then, and eventually resulted in the so-called "Reagan Democrats".
But with the rise of all the right-wing media "bloviators" (Rush, O'Reilly, Coulter, et al), who make a good living off the Right, weaning the GOP off the extremists is going to be much harder for the Republicans to accomplish.
Your ignorant summation of us conservatives is exactly why you are fed up. Your positions are built on ignorance and lies.
Then point them out, and let's have at it.
Quote:
You believe in lofty ideas that can never be practical and yet even though it fails over and over again,
You sound more like a British Tory circa 1776.
Quote:
Your position isn't new, it has been around since the beginning of man.
Yep, no progress in all of that time, I guess you missed the Enlightenment.
Quote:
I don't have to guess about why you are voting for Obama, I can read through the numerous documents written by our founders to see your position.
Post your quotes from any of them, I have my copy of the Federalist and the Anti-Federalist papers (why that I doubt that you've never even cracked a copy) so go for it.
Quote:
"They warned of majority oppression of minority..."
Not a good line to us on a 50+ year old African American.
Quote:
That they would vote for those who promised them favors rather than those who would protect their rights.
Excuse me? McCain isn't offering favors? What's a permanent tax cut, what is buying up mortgages but favors? The issue is who is getting the favors and who isn't.
Quote:
When you do though, suffering will begin and others will have to put out great sacrafice to repair your damage.
Either you are sleep waling, clinically dead or a Democrat who is confused as to whom you are talking to.
People are suffering NOW, the system is broken NOW. You folks broke it, we want to fix it. Get a newspaper, turn off FAUXNEWS, read a book, inform yourself!
"I guess it is need though, for any society to truly respect the freedoms they have, they must be taken to the brink and bleed for their capture. Such is the cycle of life. Freedom that is given, is not respected and we have not earned it, so it is natural that we would abuse it."
To paraphrase Hillary Clinton: the clouds parted, the sun shined through and the Lee Greenwood sound track is cued. Spare me the empty prose. State some facts and get back to me.
For the mere sake of argument, I'll take this rather ill measured indignation to task as best I can.
To begin with you start by using the term "conservative", in which you then list a series of qualities that you associate with what you think a conservative is. To this, I say you are wholly and utterly wrong as well as grossly presumptuous. You may be referring to the more generic term Republican or "right-winger" or something to that effect and maybe even a few conservatives but hardly the whole. When you start out making such a bold statement it would help that you get the definitions and context of that which you are deriding in the proper construct, otherwise you begin under a false premise to which no accurate conclusion can come.
I won't scoff or chide anyone that desires change as change is a good thing when tempered with healthy skepticism and close examination. Change for the mere sake of change as a general argument is folly. Contemporary Republicanism is a failed experiment of wildly assumptive policy born in a think tank by fools proven folly by their results in the Sands of the Middle East and in the halls of Wall Street. Change from this is good, but I see little evidence that Obama will curb the United States government's appetite for spending money it does not have and will borrow from another generation not yet born. Change in words, sure, change in action is yet to be seen and neither you nor I can say with any certainty what the future may hold. I don't believe Obama will be the change many expect, and I hope that I am wrong.
Sure YOU have had enough, so have I, and so have the majority of people but if you wish to issue forth blame, just make sure you place it in the proper box.
If you wish to view others that you have already misidentified to start with as having issues that equate to that of a disease of addiction to which you plan on playing the role of therapist. As a therapist we should be able to assume that such a professional will provide an objective assessment in order to determine the best treatment. As such it would probably be reasonable to recognize that the party you hold so high from the contempt of that which you wish to treat, is also a co conspirator and an enabler of no less than half of those things you hold in such low regard.
I have nothing personal against Obama and in fact I admire his idealistic vision and message of unity and hope, as sometimes there is a time to buy the world a coke. At the same time, vision and hope does not fill empty bellies, fill treasuries, cloth soldiers in the field, or provide warmth in a home on a winters night. Actions do these things, so let us all hope that the vision is a tire that actually meets the road.
I must ask that you and yours do the same and while passing around the adulation earned. As there can be little honor or joy in supporting a visionary man who professes unity and brotherhood while at the same time holding the vanquished in such low esteem, as it only perpetuates the divisiveness you so boldly rally against.
As you look in the mirror with such self pride, remember who also supported and discharged the wars you despise. Remember those cohorts who joined with those you oppose in passing on to future generations a debt that you and I incurred. Remember that two years ago when there was another opportunity for change that required courage of convictions, that no party stood vanguard and opposed these things at the time when America needed them most.
So while I understand how good it must make you feel to see triumph before you on the field, it gives me no pleasure to see that there is little difference in your words than those of the people you deride. Those you tell to look in the mirror, the reflection cast is likely that of yourself.
Why don't you offer some details on which posts you take offense with or find pedantic. If someone makes a bold statement that essentially can be summed up as conservatives are racist hate mongers who destroyed the country, then a response is warranted especially when the rant was using stereotypical generalizations that they cry out justice for.
Seems like alot of the objections to the OP revolve around the complaint that all conservatives and/or Republicans are lately being painted with the same "right wing extremist" brush.
Perhaps.
Thank you for getting it.
Regarding respect for conservatives.
Somewhere around here I have posted by former admiration for Conservatives. The brilliant minds like William F. Buckely, are sorely missed even when I disagreed with them, they were thinkers of principle. I still admire George Will, David Broder, David Gergen, George Bush Sr, even Jeb Bush who I know personally.
But mention Conservatives on this board who have endorsed Obama and read the arguments.
Colin Powell, a race lackey!
Lincoln Chafee, traitor.
Chuck Hagel, RHINO
Susan Eisenhower,
It's not me who is the ignorant one when it comes to Conservatives, it is the conservatives on these boards who are confusing Conservatism with old school southern demagoguery and racism, with a mix of new school fascism.
What I have discovered on my short time on this board the conservatives on these boards like their darling Sarah Palin are woeful ignorant about political theories, political theorist, political economy (hell even basic Keynesian economics in general) and who seem to think that "patriotic platitudes" is a replacement for real knowledge of American history and most startling the US Constitution.
I've been on discussion forums with Conservatives who have a firm grasp on all the above, who make me think and who can actually challenge my arguments with facts. Frankly most of the conservatives here are just one step above the Neanderthals who inhabit Free Republic.
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