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Finally: "The fact that a Spanish or a Bolivian living in Catalonia speaks Catalan does not have any importance whatsoever except for politicians." Blatant lie. Politicians only care about language because it gives them votes. You don't care about the Catalan language, a few others I'm sure don't care either, yet MANY CATALANS do care.
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Many Catalans are full of hate and they want to impose Catalan on Spaniards and foreigners living here. They think that Spaniards are stupid and inferior. They are not different from Franco. In fact, our leading Nationalist party has a similar ideology. I know since I'm a former politician of that party (CIU). In fact, the language is just a smokescreen. Without the language, CIU would be a naked neofrancoist party.
Others are zealots and cooks and behave like ultracatalanists because they are mixed or have non-Catalan parents or grandparents. They are renegades. They are those Lopeces and Ramireces that vote ERC.
Catalan politicians are scum. Catalans are good as entepreneurs, clowns, artists, con artists and creative people in general, but Catalans are awful as politicians, bankers or anything that has to do with administering public funds. That's why the Generalitat is Camorra. There's no internal criticism here because of Omerta. In that sense, Catalonia and Catalans are more similar to Napolitans and Sicilians than to Spanish.
I DON'T HAVE THE NEED to humiliate anybody living here in Catalonia (Spain). I don't have to go to extremes to appear as Catalan. I don't have the need to insult Andalusians (just like Duran i Lleida) or insult Madrileños, that's stupid and irresponsible since they are OUR CUSTOMERS.
And really, I could'nt care less about the predominance of Catalan among foreigners. Catalan is the language of Catalans, our intimate language, a language "per anar per casa" just like old and worn out slippers. I don't like foreigners yapping the language.
And really, a Spanish that speaks Catalan is just plain ridiculous.
Hell, I would never in my life attempt to speak bable, panocho, galician, fabla or whatever.
Many Catalans are full of hate and they want to impose Catalan on Spaniards and foreigners living here. They think that Spaniards are stupid and inferior. They are not different from Franco. In fact, our leading Nationalist party has a similar ideology.
Many Catalans are full of hate and think that Spaniards are stupid and inferior. Many Spaniards are full of hate and think that Catalans are the scum of the earth and should be exterminated along with their inferior language. Many Catalans are full of hate and believe that only extremists with terrible sociopathic agendas could defend a minor, racist language like Catalan. It takes all sorts...
Others are zealots and behave like ultracatalanists because they are mixed or have non-Catalan parents or grandparents. They are renegades. They are those Lopeces and Ramireces that vote ERC.
I DON'T HAVE THE NEED to humiliate anybody living here in Catalonia (Spain). I don't have to go to extremes to appear as Catalan.
It has nothing to do with humiliation. It's giving children adequate training in one more language, more specifically the language of the place they live in, which unlike so many others is very much alive and out in the streets.How tragic.
Funnily enough, you wouldn't mind humiliating a speaker of Catalan and his family by making his or her language academically irrelevant and going back to those good ol' times when people could indeed speak Catalan but had no idea how to write it because they hadn't been taught at school.
And really, I could'nt care less about the predominance of Catalan among foreigners. Catalan is the language of Catalans, our intimate language, a language "per anar per casa" just like old and worn out slippers. I don't like foreigners junking the language.
My "ethnic Catalan" SO has Catalan as his mother tongue and he likes to take it everywhere. Shining shoes of a language. He'll switch to Spanish outside Catalonia and to English or French outside Spain. Maybe you'd rather hide Catalan under the covers of unofficiality, folklore and oldies-goldies until it dies out, but stop implying that you represent the opinion of "ethnic Catalans" or that it's socialists and evil Catalan nationalists (Catalan nationalist = evil; Spanish nationalist = nothing wrong with it!) that are promoting, speaking and interested in learning the language.
And really, a Spanish that speaks Catalan is just plain ridiculous.
Is that your ruling? Mine is: a Catalan who thinks that the Catalan language isn't worth any trouble is ridiculous, as is an Arab or a French speaking Spanish anywhere. We all have (inane) opinions of our own. Of course, my opinion is not that (nothing ridiculous about people speaking languages that are not completely their own) but everything can be argued at this point. Plenty of room for creativity. Isn't it great?
I couldn't care less about language. Speaking English, Japanese or German does not transform you into an English, Japanese or German.
I know Catalans that don't speak Catalan.
The fact that a Spanish or a Bolivian living in Catalonia speaks Catalan does not have any importance whatsoever except for politicians.
The fact that those people you mention speak Catalan and are fanatic followers of the F.C. Barcelona does not mean a thing, except for themselves or the political agendas of some political parties.
Those non-Catalans do feel an attachment for the lenguage because they have a very low cultural entity, and they think that Catalans are superior (quite stupid, really). That's why the rebuke their own culture to become "catalanets". But in fact they are not Catalans, they are Spanish that speak Catalan.
Now, if you as a foreign observer consider that Catalans are all those that speak Catalan, follow F.C. Barcelona and denigrate their Spanish parents and grandparents, I must tell you that you are blatantly wrong.
If you want to keep Catalan as something "special" and "reserved" for a small ethnic clique, then I can tell you that your language will end up dying a slow but certain death in the modern world. I have seen this in so many other places - and I know what I am talking about.
We already have evidence that the phenomenon is underway - you yourself report that you know Catalans (ethnic I guess) who do not speak the Catalan language...
Thankfully, it seems that most Catalans do not share your view, as evidenced by the various programs and laws that have been put in place to reinforce your language's place in all aspects of life in Catalonia. Good for them.
If you want to keep Catalan as something "special" and "reserved" for a small ethnic clique, then I can tell you that your language will end up dying a slow but certain death in the modern world. I have seen this in so many other places - and I know what I am talking about.
We already have evidence that the phenomenon is underway - you yourself report that you know Catalans (ethnic I guess) who do not speak the Catalan language...
Thankfully, it seems that most Catalans do not share your view, as evidenced by the various programs and laws that have been put in place to reinforce your language's place in all aspects of life in Catalonia. Good for them.
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Acajack
During the last 35 years, large amounts of money have been invested in teaching Catalan to non-Catalans. The immersion in Catalan, public TV in Catalan, the language of the administration until recently was exclusively Catalan. In no time, maybe in a couple of years, maybe more, all those investments will dry up (no money, no political will).
When that time comes, all those people that were forced to speak Catalan to get a job in the administration, at public schools, etc, etc, will stop speaking Catalan. In fact, most Spanish that are forced to learn Catalan at school don't speak the language in playgrounds, in their homes, in the street. If you walk around Barcelona right now, let's say around Portaferrissa and Portal de l'Ã ngel, 90 percent of the people speak Spanish.
When that time comes, Ethnic Catalans will continue to speak Catalan. Catalan is the language of ethnic Catalans, but not the language of any "nation", not a "national" language since we are not a nation and we will never be a nation. You can't build a nation THAT DOES NOT EXIST forcing a language on poor Spanish and Foreign immigrants (those that don't have the money to go to a private school, where they will learn Spanish, English and two or three languages).
Catalans ceased to be warriors a long time ago (XIII and XIV Centuries). Modern Catalans are bourgeois, no fight, "truce". Spanish say we are "pactists" (another way of saying chicken). All the "independentism" here is just a big puff of bad breath.
We already have evidence that the phenomenon is underway - you yourself report that you know Catalans (ethnic I guess) who do not speak the Catalan language...
That happened 30 or 40 years ago among some rich Catalans in Barcelona, now they had to "relearn" Catalan since it was of their convenience. Now Ethnic Catalans have political power in Catalonia, before you had to go to Madrid and speak Spanish. There's also a monstrous Catalan administration that generates paybacks, you need Catalan to be part of the "societat civil catalana" (some sort of Catalan camorra that involves Ethnic Catalans from PSC and CIU).
When that time comes, Ethnic Catalans will continue to speak Catalan.
For a while, they will. But after while it will become only a "kitchen language", and more and more ethnic Catalans will intermarry with Spanish (Castellano) speakers, and they will be speak Spanish since that is the language they have in common, and their kids will only speak Spanish, and then slowly but surely Catalan will die out.
Some Catalans (if indeed you are Catalan) like you may think you are somehow special and it won't happen to you, but world history is filled with peoples who thought it wouldn't happen to them because they were special and whose language, culture and identity died out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manolón
Catalan is the language of ethnic Catalans, but not the language of any "nation", not a "national" language since we are not a nation and we will never be a nation. You can't build a nation THAT DOES NOT EXIST
There is no set definition of what constitutes a "nation", and most "nations" of the world are in fact artifical military or political constructions. This includes established countries like France, UK, the United States... and even Spain.
For a while, they will. But after while it will become only a "kitchen language", and more and more ethnic Catalans will intermarry with Spanish (Castellano) speakers, and they will be speak Spanish since that is the language they have in common, and their kids will only speak Spanish, and then slowly but surely Catalan will die out.
Some Catalans (if indeed you are Catalan) like you may think you are somehow special and it won't happen to you, but world history is filled with peoples who thought it wouldn't happen to them because they were special and whose language, culture and identity died out.
There is no set definition of what constitutes a "nation", and most "nations" of the world are in fact artifical military or political constructions. This includes established countries like France, UK, the United States... and even Spain.
Ethnic catalans? lol? what are you talking about? i speak valenciano, a variant of catalan, i´m not from catalonia but from valencia, those territories belonged to the kingdom of Aragon, before of the foundation of spain, there is nothing "ethnic" , i must tell you that the strongest advocates of catalan nationalism sometimes are the children of immigrants from other regions of spain who went to work to catalonia in the past.
Ethnic catalans? lol? what are you talking about? i speak valenciano, a variant of catalan, i´m not from catalonia but from valencia, those territories belonged to the kingdom of Aragon, before of the foundation of spain, there is nothing "ethnic" , i must tell you that the strongest advocates of catalan nationalism sometimes are the children of immigrants from other regions of spain who went to work to catalonia in the past.
It's Manolón who thinks that Catalan is a language that only makes sense when spoken by "ethnic Catalans". Read the previous posts.
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