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I always hear that many university-educated Europeans pursue graduate study (at a higher rate than in North America) if one was to understand masters as being graduate study. But is there really more students earning masters in Europe than in North America (as a proportion of people who earned an undergraduate degree)?
Or do most European university graduates stop with a bachelors?
In Europe the situation is not so uniform, look just at this graph about the percentage of people with a bachelor degree in the 30-34 years old range
We really have deluding results...
Anyway, about Italy the situation is a little more complicated because our system is different, because in practice our bachelors are spilled in two parts.
For the most of our majors we starts with a "laurea triennale" = "three-years degree", which obviously lasts 3 years. After these years we get a "laurea breve" = "short degree". If we want something comparable with the 4-years degrees that are present in other countries (for example in the US), we continue with the "laurea magistrale". This is more difficult to translate, but in practice it is a "socialistic degree" that lasts for other two year. After this 3+2 years degree we get a Laurea comparable with the bachelors degrees.
So that we start the university when we are already kinda old, when we are 18-19, in practice we end the university later than in other countries. In practice we can't get the degree before we are 23-24 years old (the national average is even higher, 25.1 years old). For example now I'm nearly 22 years old, and I'm just at the end of the "laurea triennale".
Other degrees (medicine, pharmacy, some majors in law and architecture) are organized as an only degree, which lasts 5 years (6 for medicine). Those degrees are called "lauree magistrali a ciclo unico".
After we get the "laurea magistrale" we can decide to continue with masters or PhDs, but the most of us don't because in our opinion we loose already too much time to get the bachelor degree, and in addition here in Italy high education doesn't correspond to an higher employment rate.
Now I can't find any survey about the number of people with a master, but I have the impression that they are not many.
I knew that some countries' tertiary education (France, Italy, to name a few) was highly complicated.
So which countries seem to have the widest range of jobs that prefer, or require outright, a masters to get a job that requires university education at all?
The first country that comes to mind in this respect is Russia, where bachelors holders seem not to be any better off in the job market than high school graduates without a vocational education.
So which countries seem to have the widest range of jobs that prefer, or require outright, a masters to get a job that requires university education at all?
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That's the perfect question to ask.
The fact is, many countries produce too many PhDs they actually need. True we need good quality research, but knowing two dozens of phds myself, I can say that 90% of the "research" most phDs do and "paper" they write as a way of living is pure BS and waste of resources.
The fact is, many countries produce too many PhDs for what they actually need. True we need good quality research, but knowing two dozens of phds myself, I can say that 90% of the "research" most phDs do and "paper" they write as a way of living is pure BS and waste of resources.
Switzerland is the first country that comes to mind as far as producing too many PhDs is concerned.
These stats are dated 2011; Figure 1 ranks selected countries and their per-capita PhD production rate (counted by country of residency) as well as the per capita production of PhDs by province within Canada.
Most people in Austria who earn a bachelors usually go straight for the masters.
The reason for that? Austrian employers still don't really accept bachelor degrees.
Traditionally we had (and still have in some fields of study) a two-tier university system. The first degree used to be a Mag. (Magister), what is now known as a masters degree. You'd get that after either four or five years of study. The second degree was a Dr. (Doktor), now known as PhD.
Curriculums changed quite a bit to accommodate the bachelor/master system. Many people think that things got worse. So now they say that you have to get a masters degree.
Most people in Austria who earn a bachelors usually go straight for the masters.
The reason for that? Austrian employers still don't really accept bachelor degrees.
Traditionally we had (and still have in some fields of study) a two-tier university system. The first degree used to be a Mag. (Magister), what is now known as a masters degree. You'd get that after either four or five years of study. The second degree was a Dr. (Doktor), now known as PhD.
Curriculums changed quite a bit to accommodate the bachelor/master system. Many people think that things got worse. So now they say that you have to get a masters degree.
Same thing in Holland. You got a drs., mr. or ir., not a bachelor's degree. Sadly we have adopted some version of the US system.
I understand that Austrian, Dutch and Russian employers don't really accept bachelors but I wonder whether there is a strong push for research at the masters level or most people seem to prefer taught masters?
Quote:
Originally Posted by viribusunitis
Most people in Austria who earn a bachelors usually go straight for the masters.
The reason for that? Austrian employers still don't really accept bachelor degrees.
Traditionally we had (and still have in some fields of study) a two-tier university system. The first degree used to be a Mag. (Magister), what is now known as a masters degree. You'd get that after either four or five years of study. The second degree was a Dr. (Doktor), now known as PhD. Curriculums changed quite a bit to accommodate the bachelor/master system. Many people think that things got worse. So now they say that you have to get a masters degree.
Did the Bologna Process just cause curricula to be split (the earliest ~60% to bachelors, the more advanced ~40% to masters)?
Or was there some dumbing down as well?
On a sidenote: many Russians complained about bachelors+masters taking too long for what it actually taught, but Russia used not to have bachelors at all. If one was to believe these Russian complaints, some Russian programs could have been taught in four years rather than the five years a joint bachelors+masters normally take. (Russian universities usually offer joint bachelors+masters, from which you graduate with both degrees without even applying to graduate school, and they are supposed to last five years)
I understand that Austrian, Dutch and Russian employers don't really accept bachelors but I wonder whether there is a strong push for research at the masters level or most people seem to prefer taught masters?
You REALLY need to understand that Europe is not one country with very big differences between the countries and that Europe is very different from the US. And then the subtleties of the countries themselves.
In Holland every master's degree is a taught one. Very little publishing of papers, practically nonexistent.
AND in Holland we have two different types of higher education. HBO, which only gives a bachelor's degree. And university, which now also gives out bachelor's. But bachelor's degree at a university is of a higher level than that of the HBO, but also not very well accepted by employers.
My comment about the Bologna Process was addressed to the Austrian poster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyAndRugby
In Holland every master's degree is a taught one. Very little publishing of papers, practically nonexistent.
AND in Holland we have two different types of higher education. HBO, which only gives a bachelor's degree. And university, which now also gives out bachelor's. But bachelor's degree at a university is of a higher level than that of the HBO, but also not very well accepted by employers.
Are there fields where opportunities for research internships (say, over the summer) for Dutch masters students exist? Or they are truly nonexistent?
I'm asking this because some taught masters leave no room to conduct any actual research, while other taught masters just means that one conducts a minor research project with no expectation of publications by graduation.
Russia, on the other hand, made masters more research-intensive after splitting the old five-year undergraduate degrees (which comprised a capstone project that is, IIRC, semester-long) into four-year bachelors and two-year masters in 2007. Below is how the majority of Russian masters programs operate.
Year 1: a few courses, literature review (and, with some supervisors, the actual research begins in the second half of the first year)
Year 2: Full-time research (I know not, however, whether TA is mandatory or not, and how strictly do they adhere to the two-year limit)
But taught masters also exist since 2007, too.
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