The European Union - the New Soviet Union? (theory, climate, move)

[albion]

I suppose you could say the the US is similar to the EU, in other words a group of states with their own laws & a common currency.
One poster said that any member country can leave the EU, that's correct.
look what happened in the US, when in 1861 the secession of the southern states led to the American civil war where the south was forced back into the union against their will.
Sort of thing the communists used to do in countries like Hungary eh, only 100 years earlier.

[jja100]

Originally Posted by albion

I suppose you could say the the US is similar to the EU, in other words a group of states with their own laws & a common currency.
One poster said that any member country can leave the EU, that's correct.
look what happened in the US, when in 1861 the secession of the southern states led to the American civil war where the south was forced back into the union against their will.
Sort of thing the communists used to do in countries like Hungary eh, only 100 years earlier.

I really want to keep this thread focused on the EU.

The US is not similar to the EU. The US consists of a country comprised of states and the EU consists of a Union comprised of countries comprised of regions. The EU has a third level of governance.

Secondly, states are not countries.

Thirdly, any EU member can leave but the financial consequences of competing against and being excluding from economic prosperity is too great... this is why the speaker made a reference to "economic bullying" and the EU being "irreversible". Did you even watch the video?

The civil war was about the southern states maintaining and spreading slavery. The South wanted to keep them by seceding from the rest of the union. The union was not being oppressive because it stood for the preservation of human rights under the Declaration of Independence "all men are created equal" phrase.

[lend44]

This is an absolute nonsense.

First off, this man brings analogies that are obvious. So what there are several things similar to Soviet Union. People had two legs and cars had 4 wheels too, so whatttttt..... When focusing on similarities it is rather easy to forget about differences... Here's one, if I went to Red Square in Moscow and shouted "Stalin sucks" I would spend the rest of my life in Siberia. Whereas in Brussels I can ran all around the town shouting almost whatever I want without any serious consenquencies. Here's another one, in europe, you dont have to pay a fortune to get say an imported car from Japan. During Soviet years a Panasonic stereo for example would cost you up to 20 times more expensive than a local one.

Secondly, this man states that people are going to lose their identities like what happened in Soviet Union. What a nonsense!! My country for example which once used to be one of the 15 soviet republics didn't. Exactly the opposite, my native language and culture were preserved and prospered. The government was repearing churches constructing museums, revealing the history etc.., and all of these was being funded by a government which was declared to be atheist. Just because people were communist didnt mean they lost their identity or forgot about their culture or didnt speak their language any more. As it comes to EU, I think the situation is way better. The government encourages people to be European, still remaining of your own nationality, speaking your language, preserving your culture, because otherwise europeans are not going to be able to compete globally against major forces like US, Russia, China, India, Japan etc. Being a European is meant to be something extra, not something instead of your own nationality.

Furthermore, Europe is a FREE MARKET ECONOMY. And I think this one speaks for itself.

Last but not least, this argument is a nonsense because even if all the statements were true, there is no proof that socialism is flawed (from a scientific perspective). Just because Soviet Union failed to doesnt mean it is impossible... Now I'm not encouraging people to build a new Soviet Union, but this again proves that this guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

To summarize, I think this is some sort of propaganda against the EU without any acceptable premises possibly funded by forces which see the Unified Europe as a threat.

[jja100]

Originally Posted by lend44

This is an absolute nonsense.

First off, this man brings analogies that are obvious. So what there are several things similar to Soviet Union. People had two legs and cars had 4 wheels too, so whatttttt.....

Comparing similarities between two political entities to how many appendages a human has or how many wheels a vehicle has is not an extremely convincing counterargument.

Originally Posted by lend44

When focusing on similarities it is rather easy to forget about differences... Here's one, if I went to Red Square in Moscow and shouted "Stalin sucks" I would spend the rest of my life in Siberia. Whereas in Brussels I can ran all around the town shouting almost whatever I want without any serious consenquencies.

The speaker wasn't claiming that the EU is the Soviet Union. He is stating that it has the makings of one that can evolve into something as dangerous. I think you can click for different languages on the video if people here are having a little trouble following what he is saying.

Originally Posted by lend44

Here's another one, in europe, you dont have to pay a fortune to get say an imported car from Japan. During Soviet years a Panasonic stereo for example would cost you up to 20 times more expensive than a local one.

Euro has affected Italian budgets, buying power | The San Diego Union-Tribune

These are countless articles on how the Euro effectively doubled the price of goods and services and wages remained the same.

Originally Posted by lend44

Secondly, this man states that people are going to lose their identities like what happened in Soviet Union. What a nonsense!! My country for example which once used to be one of the 15 soviet republics didn't. Exactly the opposite, my native language and culture were preserved and prospered. The government was repearing churches constructing museums, revealing the history etc.., and all of these was being funded by a government which was declared to be atheist. Just because people were communist didnt mean they lost their identity or forgot about their culture or didnt speak their language any more.

The Soviet Union only lasted 69 years. That is not even one generation of influence.

Originally Posted by lend44

As it comes to EU, I think the situation is way better. The government encourages people to be European, still remaining of your own nationality, speaking your language, preserving your culture, because otherwise europeans are not going to be able to compete globally against major forces like US, Russia, China, India, Japan etc. Being a European is meant to be something extra, not something instead of your own nationality.

I hope for your sake that it stays that way.

Originally Posted by lend44

Furthermore, Europe is a FREE MARKET ECONOMY. And I think this one speaks for itself.

Last but not least, this argument is a nonsense because even if all the statements were true, there is no proof that socialism is flawed (from a scientific perspective). Just because Soviet Union failed to doesnt mean it is impossible... Now I'm not encouraging people to build a new Soviet Union, but this again proves that this guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

A free market is a term that economists use to describe a market which is free from government intervention (i.e. no regulation, no subsidization, no single monetary system and no governmental monopolies).

I think European countries have all of the four which exclude it from being a "free market".

Originally Posted by lend44

To summarize, I think this is some sort of propaganda against the EU without any acceptable premises possibly funded by forces which see the Unified Europe as a threat.

Well if it is, then you have nothing to worry about and I value your opinion. I find this discussion to be ironic. I am the only one on this thread so far that agrees that the EU has the makings and structural framework of the Soviet Union. Lets see if we can get up to 27 people that disagree with me since it takes that many country's GDP to surpass the US.

[lend44]

Originally Posted by jja100

Comparing similarities between two political entities to how many appendages a human has or how many wheels a vehicle has is not an extremely convincing counterargument.

But taking separate political mechanisms of two entirely different political entities and finding them similar doesn't mean the two systems are similar in the first place. With the same nuts and bolts you can assemble an airplane that flies and a submarine that goes underneath the ocean.

Originally Posted by jja100

The speaker wasn't claiming that the EU is the Soviet Union. He is stating that it has the makings of one that can evolve into something as dangerous. I think you can click for different languages on the video if people here are having a little trouble following what he is saying.

He doesnt describe anything leading EU to becoming something like SU. I can't see Bolshevik Revolution coming anytime soon in europe.

Originally Posted by jja100

Euro has affected Italian budgets, buying power | The San Diego Union-Tribune

These are countless articles on how the Euro effectively doubled the price of goods and services and wages remained the same.

My point was not about the products getting more expensive. What I was trying to say was that innovations from different parts of the world were not freely available leading to lower life quality for the Soviet people.

Originally Posted by jja100

The Soviet Union only lasted 69 years. That is not even one generation of influence.

Yes, but during those years people of my nation for one have seen things going exactly the opposite way of how the author describes.

Originally Posted by jja100

I hope for your sake that it stays that way.

I am sure its gonna stay that way

Originally Posted by jja100

A free market is a term that economists use to describe a market which is free from government intervention (i.e. no regulation, no subsidization, no single monetary system and no governmental monopolies).

I think European countries have all of the four which exclude it from being a "free market".

Thats your definition. Mine is in accordance with the following:

The term free-market economy is sometimes used synonymously with market economy, but this does not preclude an economy from having socialist attributes opposed to a laissez-faire system.A market economy is still a market economy even if the government intervenes in pricing.

Originally Posted by jja100;10034277[B

Well if it is, then you have nothing to worry about and I value your opinion.[/b] I find this discussion to be ironic. I am the only one on this thread so far that agrees that the EU has the makings and structural framework of the Soviet Union. Lets see if we can get up to 27 people that disagree with me since it takes that many country's GDP to surpass the US.

I'm not sure whether it is, but it sounds to be one. Thanks for the kind words though.

[Travelling fella]

The eu rocks, it has brought many good things to europe.

keep setting the example guys!

[bale002]

On balance, the EU is a good thing and the alternatives, at least into the foreseeable future, are worse.

The steep rise in prices immediately following the introduction of the euro may be attributable to price-gouging and commission-taking for the switchover, but overall inflation in Europe is more due to relative lack of productivity growth. Having said that, official inflation, at least, has been moderate, though to be sure the politicians lie about inflation.

At any rate, it is understandable that price levels are high in Europe, in part considering the many centuries of accumulated wealth on the continent, despite the civil wars of the early 20th Century and similar scourges like communism and other dictatorships (Portugal and Spain are interesting examples).

By the way, countries like Norway and Switzerland seem to be doing okay outside of the EU, but all countries in the globalized economy today are bent by international pressures in one way or another.

Any body politic is susceptible to a dictatorship at one point or another in its history, even the US, so the hand-picked similarities by the speaker in the video are not particularly impressive.

I do not perceive the EU as being driven by some kind of ideological/romantic-era type lust, but by some rather banal materialistic practicalities, not to mention a natural desire for cultural survival, in the face of economic globalism: the Europeans have more similarities amongst each other in that wider context than they have differences amongst themselves within the narrower context of EU territory, while at the same time leaving space for the survival of regional cultures (Grecanico in southern Italy, for example). In short, the EU works unspectacularly, but it works.

Nonetheless, people should not be complacent about the blessings of democracy.

[albion]

For some reason a lot of Americans have a bee in their bonnet when it comes to the EU.
I don't know why. but to compare it to the soviet union is obviously ridiculous.

[meet4]

Originally Posted by jja100

I care for the same reasons America cared when we tore down that wall, or when we saved it from Nazism. All of those entities started off as benevolent enterprises with the will of the people until they turned into something entirely different.

You saved "it" from who? You definitely didn't save me, we saved by ourselves. You fought the Germany which is major part of EU now... funny isn't?

Again. There is more people in EU happy with EU then people in US happy about USA. I would suggest to redirect your energy to internal affairs which you have definitely better understanding about.
I can't be bothered to argue with you about EU nuances, it seems all you do is to watch Fox, some youtube activist and read some articles with agenda. Maybe check how EU actually works, who votes for what, what Lisabon proposes etc. You can also find that countries can exist outside Euro currency or outside EU and prosper - hint Switzerland, Norway...

[Sandy Nelson]

I found it extremely distasteful and ridiculous that he would campare the soviet gulags to what he calls "intellactual gulags" in the EU. After that statement I stopped listening.