The European Union - the New Soviet Union? (best, country, people)
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First of all, why the old guy cares? He should show on the doll where the evil EU touched him. Let's see... Vladimir Bukovsky is a member of the Board of Directors of the Gratitude Fund, and a member of the International Council of the New York-based Human Rights Foundation. In April 2006 The Freedom Association launched Better Off Out -- a high profile campaign for the UK to leave the EU.
So US and UK conservative interests. Ummm hum. Clearly unbiased document.
Yes, we are aware of EU structure and proposed changes. But you know... no one is forcing states to join EU, and you can leave anytime you want. Strange that such a stalinist era dictatorship is the biggest economy in the world and new states wants to join 24/7 and noone ever left.
This is absolute nonsense. The EU and the Soviet Union are completely different. To even suggest that EU citizens live under a similar type of tyranny that the Soviet Union citizens once faced is absurd.
So you think everything he is saying is not credible? You have the audacity to call a prisoner of war biased... that really says there really isn't any hope for "Europeans".
Not a very well constructed argument. Full of contradictions. Very selective use of examples. Fairly easy to rebut if anyone can be bothered.
However, the most effective rebuttal is that the vast majority of EU citizens seem to be pretty happy with what the EU has delivered over the past 40 years. This includes the notoriously Euro-sceptic Brits who, despite having the opportunity to vote for anti-EU parties and candidates, systematically vote for the pro-EU ones. Britain, of course, famously had a referendum on whether to stay in, what was, the EEC. The voted to stay in. Damned inconvenient all this democracy
More interesting is why Americans like jja100 seem so obsessed by the EU. Answers on a postcard to:
The European Commission
Brussels
Belgium
European Union.
This is absolute nonsense. The EU and the Soviet Union are completely different. To even suggest that EU citizens live under a similar type of tyranny that the Soviet Union citizens once faced is absurd.
I don't think he is saying that the EU has become Soviet yet. He is just laying out the evident similarities between the two. So far that is 2 people that support the EU and its actions. Interesting.
Two people disagree with the speaker. The first discredited the speaker by challenging his credibility and the second disagrees on the basis that it is nonsense. Any more intelligent remarks? Is there anything this man is saying that is not true specifically that you can back up with any sort of data/historical reference?
Not a very well constructed argument. Full of contradictions. Very selective use of examples. Fairly easy to rebut if anyone can be bothered.
However, the most effective rebuttal is that the vast majority of EU citizens seem to be pretty happy with what the EU has delivered over the past 40 years. This includes the notoriously Euro-sceptic Brits who, despite having the opportunity to vote for anti-EU parties and candidates, systematically vote for the pro-EU ones. Britain, of course, famously had a referendum on whether to stay in, what was, the EEC. The voted to stay in. Damned inconvenient all this democracy
More interesting is why Americans like jja100 seem so obsessed by the EU. Answers on a postcard to:
The European Commission
Brussels
Belgium
European Union.
I am an Italian citizen too. Or should I just call myself European. I think many European nations are threatened to join and agree with referendums because if they don't, how successful can an independent country on it's own be in the middle of Europe.
I am an Italian citizen too. Or should I just call myself European. I think many European nations are threatened to join and agree with referendums because if they don't, how successful can an independent country on it's own be in the middle of Europe.
You may well have an Italian passport but you really don't get the nature of being a European and how you can maintain your regional and/or national identity while still being part of a greater whole. The reasons Europeans vote for the EU is precisely because it does not threaten their identity while, at the same time it has delivered significant economic benefits.
I don't think he is saying that the EU has become Soviet yet. He is just laying out the evident similarities between the two. So far that is 2 people that support the EU and its actions. Interesting.
Two people disagree with the speaker. The first discredited the speaker by challenging his credibility and the second disagrees on the basis that it is nonsense. Any more intelligent remarks? Is there anything this man is saying that is not true specifically that you can back up with any sort of data/historical reference?
And why you care? Most of EU citizens including me are very happy with the EU. More and more states wants to join EU. Noone ever left EU even it's free to do so.
There is 500 million of people with thousands of years of different history, wars and ethnic conflicts. Yet, they all can talk somehow together now, creating #1 economic power in the world and still maintaining high social, living and educational standards available to everyone, tolerance and continuation of the best ancient Greek traditions.
The thing is, it's not ideal - far from it, but it's way better than anything that was here before. It's freaking impressive to be honest. Guys with agenda, such as person in youtube.com or jja100 don't see the big picture and the long term perspective
You may well have an Italian passport but you really don't get the nature of being a European and how you can maintain your regional and/or national identity while still being part of a greater whole. The reasons Europeans vote for the EU is precisely because it does not threaten their identity while, at the same time it has delivered significant economic benefits.
So now I am neither an Italian nor a European. It is already starting... blood doesn't matter anymore, ideals are the new litmus test as to whether you are "European" or not. The point the speaker was making is that identity will soon disappear starting with the youth.
The Europeans voted for these people? Not according to this man.
Economic benefits? Goods and services doubled in Italy compared to their corresponding wages. I hear similar things coming out of Spain. The price of one currency seems to be very expensive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meet4
And why you care? Most of EU citizens including me are very happy with the EU. More and more states wants to join EU. Noone ever left EU even it's free to do so.
I care for the same reasons America cared when we tore down that wall, or when we saved it from Nazism. All of those entities started off as benevolent enterprises with the will of the people until they turned into something entirely different.
No country wants to leave the EU because the economic ramifications for competing against it is unthinkable. This is what the speaker referred to as irreversible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meet4
There is 500 million of people with thousands of years of different history, wars and ethnic conflicts. Yet, they all can talk somehow together now, creating #1 economic power in the world and still maintaining high social, living and educational standards available to everyone, tolerance and continuation of the best ancient Greek traditions.
Yes, what is the new language going to be? The best ancient Greek tradition happens to be democracy and it doesn't look like the European Parliament is very representative according to how this man describes limited speech time, and unaccounted Euro-officials.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meet4
The thing is, it's not ideal - far from it, but it's way better than anything that was here before. It's freaking impressive to be honest. Guys with agenda, such as person in youtube.com or jja100 don't see the big picture and the long term perspective
My agenda is remaining free. The fact that not even one person from Europe here even recognises that this man has some credibility is frightening.
My question is why couldn't it have stopped with the Euro currency and an independent ECB. Why the unelected politicians? Why the Schengen Agreement coupled with the Amsterdam treaty? Why a Europol that resembles a KGB? Why the political correctness and lack of freedom of speech?
I am just trying to invoke thought and scepticism. Honestly, if the Europol turns into some ugly monster where the dissolution of an individual country's military is absorbed into the Europol... then it will be official that Europe is in serous trouble. So far that hasn't happened but I am just hoping that the people here are aware of the EU's problems and frightening similarities to the old Soviet Republic.
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