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There'd be a revolt from the middle and even center-left if American heroes like George Washington or Abe Lincoln's monuments were destroyed. But the Confederates were traitors and massive losers. No one in America should be honoring people who fought America...and lost because they were weak.
A statue is glorification. Its not a place to learn history, it there to glorify people from history. If people are learning from statues, that doesnt say much about their ability to learn.
Frankly, having statues to a group of people that sought to tear this nation apart seems strange to me. Especially since a huge defining reason for the war in the first place was slavery. That may not be the only reason, but if secessionist documents are to be believed then it was definitely a huge reason. Only 4 states broke down a declaration of causes, but those that did all mentioned it.
That doesnt mean every person who fought for the Confederacy was bad, but they shouldnt have statues. The comparison to American heroes is a bad one. Granted, there are some morons that want to tear down statues of Grant, Lincoln, Washington, etc, but almost all liberals are against that.
A statue is glorification. Its not a place to learn history, it there to glorify people from history. If people are learning from statues, that doesnt say much about their ability to learn.
Frankly, having statues to a group of people that sought to tear this nation apart seems strange to me. Especially since a huge defining reason for the war in the first place was slavery. That may not be the only reason, but if secessionist documents are to be believed then it was definitely a huge reason. Only 4 states broke down a declaration of causes, but those that did all mentioned it.
That doesnt mean every person who fought for the Confederacy was bad, but they shouldnt have statues. The comparison to American heroes is a bad one. Granted, there are some morons that want to tear down statues of Grant, Lincoln, Washington, etc, but almost all liberals are against that.
The statue that is the subject of this thread was of a resident who went on to become the first governor of the state from Bentonville. It's important to the discussion to understand that a lot of these Confederate statues were not just about the Civil War. That gets lost in many of these conversations. And the Civil War is part of our American history, and the fact that one side defeated the other side doesn't mean that both sides do not have a place in our history. The victor gets to tell the tale may be a truism about how the history of wars gets remembered, but the truism about not learning the lessons dooms us to repeat history I think may apply very aptly to us in this case. There were two sides in the Civil War, and we seem intent on ignoring the perspective of the losing side. If we do that, we will fail to learn the lessons the Civil War should have taught us.
I do think that many of these incidents get out of hand when someone refuses to follow a police officer's orders. And I agree that the vast majority of police officers are good people. By the same token, I think that the vast majority of protesters are good people. While you say a very few police officers are racist or bad actors, I say that very few of the protesters are bad actors as well.
I don't support the bad actors, or the bad actions of people in general. I think good manners and mutually respectful dialogue are immensely more productive than the bad-mouthing and violence ever will be. I see both sides behaving badly. Protesters on the right and protesters on the left veer of the rails and the conversation that should be happening is abruptly over.
I don't feel guilty about being a white person. I do recognize that I have enjoyed some advantages because of being white, and I truly think all white people have enjoyed such privileges. I understand that you don't think that you have, and your perception is different than mine. I would point out that my perception is supported by statistics, but I understand that you will dismiss that because you think the statistics are distorted. We disagree, and I don't think either of us has a problem with the fact that people will disagree with us from time to time.
I know I've been shocked by just how different the experiences of people in this nation have been when interacting with the police. I have seen marked differences in police treatment of people of wealth, middle-class persons, and the poor. VERY different treatment. And I've seen very different treatment between how police treat people of different races. I realize that the police have incredibly difficult jobs, and that part of their jobs is about determining the best approach for wildly different situations. I applaud law enforcement officers for just how well they meet the challenges of their profession. They have to enter into harrowing situations like domestic violence, they put their lives on the line over and over again, to serve their communities and to keep all of us safe.
When I first heard the "defund" the police ideas, I thought it completely ridiculous. But I read up on it, and I understand that the thrust of the proposal is about how we've overburdened law enforcement. Back when we, as a society, began to defund mental institutions, we ended up making police officers responsible for dealing with the problem of mentally ill people in society. We've made police officers the front line for social problems, and for just everything that poses an emergency in people's lives. All the while we've been defunding the resources to actually deal with these problems, and giving more money to police departments to militarize their equipment and procedures. It is fair to say that we need to examine what we demand of law enforcement, and if there aren't better ways to accomplish all that we ask them to do. Surely you agree with that?
DC, I too think many protesters are good people and it bothers me when some think they just want to cause trouble but the problem still lies with protests turning into riots and violence too often . As for defunding the police it will take a lot to convince me this is justified in any way. It is time for all of us and I and this goes for each one posting here to realize 99% of cops are good people even if some do have a chp on their shoulders. I understand their side but I do not understand the murders like Floyd's.
I also it is time for minorities especially blacks to stop blaming everyone else for the problems they have brought on themselves.
BS... most of it all is BS -
learn to live with the cards life has dealt you... life's not fair and nobody promised YOU a rose garden...
I grew up poor... first worked in a coal mine... struggled in the early years to make a life and looked toward the American dream as a goal... I finally made it (as far as I could) but nobody gave it to me- I had to work hard, suffer and save to get where I am today- you want it? you have to take it if you can...
Yes I'm white, but my ancestors didn't arrive on these shores until the 1890's- so don't tell me I owe anyone reparations for anything... You want trouble? -just start it and I'll gladly oblige.
I worked in the a govt. agency for 15+ years and I can tell you about the peter principal, affirmative action and who gets promoted for what reasons... so don't act like nothing has been tried to fix the problem.
I'm sick and tired of hearing about it... if conflict comes then so be it... boy scouts.
The statue that is the subject of this thread was of a resident who went on to become the first governor of the state from Bentonville. It's important to the discussion to understand that a lot of these Confederate statues were not just about the Civil War. That gets lost in many of these conversations. And the Civil War is part of our American history, and the fact that one side defeated the other side doesn't mean that both sides do not have a place in our history. The victor gets to tell the tale may be a truism about how the history of wars gets remembered, but the truism about not learning the lessons dooms us to repeat history I think may apply very aptly to us in this case. There were two sides in the Civil War, and we seem intent on ignoring the perspective of the losing side. If we do that, we will fail to learn the lessons the Civil War should have taught us.
The statue that is the subject of this thread was of a resident who went on to become the first governor of the state from Bentonville. It's important to the discussion to understand that a lot of these Confederate statues were not just about the Civil War. That gets lost in many of these conversations. And the Civil War is part of our American history, and the fact that one side defeated the other side doesn't mean that both sides do not have a place in our history. The victor gets to tell the tale may be a truism about how the history of wars gets remembered, but the truism about not learning the lessons dooms us to repeat history I think may apply very aptly to us in this case. There were two sides in the Civil War, and we seem intent on ignoring the perspective of the losing side. If we do that, we will fail to learn the lessons the Civil War should have taught us.
Well-said. The Civil War was fought between brothers, sometimes literally, as in my Arkansas ancestral family. The eldest son enlisted in the 1st Arkansas Light Artillery, CSA. His two younger brothers stayed at home, being underage. However, when a bloody skirmish was fought within less than a mile of their rural home and the two teens, then 17 and 14 went exploring on the battlefield immediately after, as teenagers will, they were told by the victorious Union officers to start helping the wounded and after that, to dig graves and help bury the dead.
A harrowing experience, no doubt, and one which very likely contributed to the middle brother's decision to enlist shortly after his 18th birthday - enlist in the Union Army, that is. The remainder of the family saw deserters and bushwhackers from both sides as well as commissary officers deplete their stores of corn, wheat, and livestock. The youngest brother went hunting for rabbits and squirrels in the shot-up woods near the emptied out farm, to help feed his many young siblings. Eventually the family accepted the Federal government's offer of shelter in nearby Fort Smith, as did many other civilians. This was followed by evacuating the civilians via steamboat down the Arkansas and up the Mississippi Rivers to southern Illiinois, where the refugees spent the last winter of the war before returning home.
In my family's case, the eldest (Confederate) brother eventually returned home, uninjured despite having seen a great deal of action at Chickamauga, the Atlanta campaign, and other eastern theater battles. The youngest brother never did enlist, but recalled his family's experiences many years later in his regular column in a local paper. But the middle brother - the 18 year old Union private - never saw battle but died of disease in a federal hospital shortly after he turned 19 - died on the same day Lincoln was assassinated.
So - it's not all black and white or good and evil when it comes to taking sides in our contemporary views of the Civil War and the motivations and character of those involved in it. Most people like my ancestors did the best they could with the information and other resources - intelligence, education, a little land - they had. Some felt a stronger attachment to their native states than to the national government - Robert E. Lee is of course the classic example of this. Others fought for the Union's integrity, though they were slaveholders. Yet others cast their lot with the Confederacy, though they never held slaves - my own family had no slaves, as far as I can tell from family stories and actual records, and they were a family of divided loyalties.
So - what do we do with all those Confederate statues? Educate people to learn more and look for nuances, for starters, rather than automatically condemning all who supported the Confederacy during those four years as traitors and criminals. They did not fight to overthrow or to conquer the United States government, but to secede from it. Jefferson Davis would have been quite content to have the Confederacy exist peacefully alongside the remaining portion of the United States. George Washington's portrait appeared on Confederate money.
The two embattled sides were deeply, inextricably tied to one another, and hopes of peaceful coexistence were pipedreams that never could have come to fruition. But understanding that many Confederate officials and sympathizers hoped for this amicable outcome rather than Civil War is crucial. During the war, Union troops were generally viewed as invaders by the South's civilian population, and many Confederate soldiers were motivated by that invasion and occupation far more than by fighting to continue slavery. Many of those soldiers never owned slaves. They fought for their homes. And some, being inexperienced and callow young men, joined up to see a little excitement and to broaden their horizons and be with their neighborhood friends who also were enlisting.
So. "It was all a big mistake", to quote my Confederate Major g-g-grandfather from the other side of my family. He was in Pickett's Charge. He also signed the pledge and became a successful community and state leader after the war and did much to support reconciliation.
And his wartime enslaved body servant who accompanied him throughout the long four-year journey through the war wound up running successfully for the state legislature after the war - with the full support and encouragement of my g-g-grandfather, on an interracial ticket.
The times then were far more complex than is generally understood now.
Put the statues in museums and/or cemeteries instead of on courthouse lawns and town squares. Make them memorials for a tragic time rather than monuments to those who fought for a very flawed cause, yet who may have had a great deal of personal integrity and who thought of themselves as honorable. Tell the whole story, as far as it is known, when teaching our children about that tragic time. Encourage them to learn and read more, on their own. Visit museums, historic homes, and battlegrounds. Don't fall for the easy, presently all too common meme of considering everyone associated in any way with the Confederacy as Nazi-like, traitors, etc. That's not who the vast majority of them were. It's a lot more complicated - and a lot more interesting. So do yourselves a favor, and learn. You won't regret it.
Last edited by CraigCreek; 09-30-2020 at 09:29 PM..
Well-said. The Civil War was fought between brothers, sometimes literally, as in my Arkansas ancestral family. The eldest son enlisted in the 1st Arkansas Light Artillery, CSA. His two younger brothers stayed at home, being underage. However, when a bloody skirmish was fought within less than a mile of their rural home and the two teens, then 17 and 14 went exploring on the battlefield immediately after, as teenagers will, they were told by the victorious Union officers to start helping the wounded and after that, to dig graves and help bury the dead.
A harrowing experience, no doubt, and one which very likely contributed to the middle brother's decision to enlist shortly after his 18th birthday - enlist in the Union Army, that is. The remainder of the family saw deserters and bushwhackers from both sides as well as commissary officers deplete their stores of corn, wheat, and livestock. The youngest brother went hunting for rabbits and squirrels in the shot-up woods near the emptied out farm, to help feed his many young siblings. Eventually the family accepted the Federal government's offer of shelter in nearby Fort Smith, as did many other civilians. This was followed by evacuating the civilians via steamboat down the Arkansas and up the Mississippi Rivers to southern Illiinois, where the refugees spent the last winter of the war before returning home.
In my family's case, the eldest (Confederate) brother eventually returned home, uninjured despite having seen a great deal of action at Chickamauga, the Atlanta campaign, and other eastern theater battles. The youngest brother never did enlist, but recalled his family's experiences many years later in his regular column in a local paper. But the middle brother - the 18 year old Union private - never saw battle but died of disease in a federal hospital shortly after he turned 19 - died on the same day Lincoln was assassinated.
So - it's not all black and white or good and evil when it comes to taking sides in our contemporary views of the Civil War and the motivations and character of those involved in it. Most people like my ancestors did the best they could with the information and other resources - intelligence, education, a little land - they had. Some felt a stronger attachment to their native states than to the national government - Robert E. Lee is of course the classic example of this. Others fought for the Union's integrity, though they were slaveholders. Yet others cast their lot with the Confederacy, though they never held slaves - my own family had no slaves, as far as I can tell from family stories and actual records, and they were a family of divided loyalties.
So - what do we do with all those Confederate statues? Educate people to learn more and look for nuances, for starters, rather than automatically condemning all who supported the Confederacy during those four years as traitors and criminals. They did not fight to overthrow or to conquer the United States government, but to secede from it. Jefferson Davis would have been quite content to have the Confederacy exist peacefully alongside the remaining portion of the United States. George Washington's portrait appeared on Confederate money.
The two embattled sides were deeply, inextricably tied to one another, and hopes of peaceful coexistence were pipedreams that never could have come to fruition. But understanding that many Confederate officials and sympathizers hoped for this amicable outcome rather than Civil War is crucial. During the war, Union troops were generally viewed as invaders by the South's civilian population, and many Confederate soldiers were motivated by that invasion and occupation far more than by fighting to continue slavery. Many of those soldiers never owned slaves. They fought for their homes. And some, being inexperienced and callow young men, joined up to see a little excitement and to broaden their horizons and be with their neighborhood friends who also were enlisting.
So. "It was all a big mistake", to quote my Confederate Major g-g-grandfather from the other side of my family. He was in Pickett's Charge. He also signed the pledge and became a successful community and state leader after the war and did much to support reconciliation.
And his wartime enslaved body servant who accompanied him throughout the long four-year journey through the war wound up running successfully for the state legislature after the war - with the full support and encouragement of my g-g-grandfather, on an interracial ticket.
The times then were far more complex than is generally understood now.
Put the statues in museums and/or cemeteries instead of on courthouse lawns and town squares. Make them memorials for a tragic time rather than monuments to those who fought for a very flawed cause, yet who may have had a great deal of personal integrity and who thought of themselves as honorable. Tell the whole story, as far as it is known, when teaching our children about that tragic time. Encourage them to learn and read more, on their own. Visit museums, historic homes, and battlegrounds. Don't fall for the easy, presently all too common meme of considering everyone associated in any way with the Confederacy as Nazi-like, traitors, etc. That's not who the vast majority of them were. It's a lot more complicated - and a lot more interesting. So do yourselves a favor, and learn. You won't regret it.
Fascinating history.
I find most people's family histories, and personal stories, to be so interesting and so telling. What people focus on, and what they leave out, tells us so much. Even just visiting graveyards, and reading different gravestones, sometimes gives us a story and insight into what people's lives were like. There certainly are villains in the world, and always have been, but most of us are just doing the best we can. I think your story illustrates a family during wartime, doing the best they could, to survive, to do what they thought was right. For human beings, even those actions viewed by outsiders as simple and straightforward often are steeped in complexity. Everything we do is vested. We don't take actions in a vacuum, we each of us have a web of relationships we are constantly navigating, we have a public persona (reputation) we take precautions to protect, and we have a private persona whose needs must be met. In every situation, we have to assess what our choices are, and how each choice will impact ourselves, our families, our friends and communities. We have to consider the risks and benefits of those choices. We have to honestly weigh our own strengths and weaknesses.
Thank You, very well said... wish more could read your words.
I was taught that the Civil War was really about States Rights vs a Central govt. and that slavery was a secondary reason... is that true?
Same here, as were my children. Yes, slavery was very much a part of it but state's rights was the number issue as the war started or so we were told
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