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Again, if you are arguing over Democrats vs Republicans and which state should grab their piece of the pie you are missing the point! We don't have the money in the first place! If that money is used in any state, it is a mistake that will cost all of us way more than that amount. Wake up!
By the end of the George H.W. Bush's presidency, Donald Trump was $900 million in personal debt and $3.5 billion in business debt. How he was allowed to get into this much debt I do not know. I am assuming because he is Republican. Creditors don't want to hear "well I screwed up", they want to recoup that money. As a result, Trump was forced to sell off assets (property) and allowed to go back out and build until he became solvent during Clinton's second term. Then over the past 10 years, he was lent more money and ran his debt back up to even higher levels. Sound familiar?
The government is attempting to implement high-speed rail projects in areas only serviced by highways to get commuters and travelers out of cars and attempt to reduce our dependency on foreign oil; many of the countries to which we are in the most debt. Unless you advocate the President selling off Alaska or the entire Midwest to pay off the national debt (which constitutionally he probably doesn't have the right to do but then again the President didn't have the right to make the Louisiana Purchase or Seward's Folly either) the government is attempting to invest in a massive public works project that will employ lots of people and spawn development that will create tax revenues that will actually help Florida more than the federal government itself.
Now, I know Floridians don't understand how this works because the state is so poorly planned. Heck, very little of the growth was planned at all. But in the real United States (in states such as New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, and Massachusetts who are footing the bill for all of the Red States) people get up every day and ride trains across multiple states to go to work. Not coincidentally, 16 of the top 20 states in terms of GSP are all "Blue" States.
The reason why the U.S. is in such massive debt to China is because banks in Florida, Georgia, Nevada, Arizona, and California lent money to developers to build a whole bunch of crap. Now that the crap has been built (or half built) and corporations continue to take advantage of tax loopholes to move jobs offshore, well there is a dearth of people in these states to actually pay for the crap and China owns our mortgage bundles.
This is why Florida is the third largest state in population but 11th in the number of Fortune 500 companies. Major corporations want to locate where they know people are coming to work and not calling in because they are stuck in gridlock on I-4. But hey, at least Florida is in the top four for both foreclosures and unemployment. So that high speed rail money WILL go to the Northeast where people WANT to get to work and not further contribute to their enslavement to Saudi Arabia.
Its more than obvious Fla has no interest in any form of Transit in its cities, let alone city to city Hi Speed Rail. I was shocked years back when Miami put in its minimal rail line, and then the regional commuter line in So Fla cities. I think the state should have just refused the money some time ago. It was obvious shortly after Obama was down there announcing all this funding, that the state probably wasn't interested. Im questioning how residents that see the constant seriousness of Fla, not dealing with the issues of transportation remain living there.
Fla is what it is. A very populated state that bascially has decided its residents will drive. This is very much a trait and a serious problem in the SE USA not just Fla. Actually its definitely a form of selfishness and comes across that transit is for low class people so few will use it. Therefore its a waste of money to build it. Because everyone in Fla is so financially secure that they can have a car to drive around and around. Of course the 90 year old is expected to get in a car also, and way to many do in that state because they have few other choices. Fla a state that doesn't seem to put much effort into controlling air pollution or giving people travel options. Obviously the states solution is to just crawl along on I-4 or any other fwy or surface street. I don't even think there is auto emission testing in that state and thats obvious in interior Fla. It is next to impossible to live in the majority of that state without a car. Even its biggest cities. Hi Speed Rail would have taken a number of cars off the road between Tampa and Orlando. Of course the argument was how does one get around after they get off the train. That would have meant the two cities would need what is normal in cities. PUBLIC TRANSIT OPTIONS. So the easy way out is to refuse the funds, and basically say not enough ridership expected to warrant building the system.
I went back and forth with the decision to retire there later this year. I kept waiting for a sign the state was growing up, and dealing with reality and the times we live in but I never saw a sign. I had hopes with the Hi Speed Rail but it seemed the mindset would kill it. Kill it as other transit projects are killed off and never built The gas is going up and up and yet Fla remains in LA LA land. Have they even increased bus service that is worth ones time in any cities especially north of So. Fla? What exactly are Fla plans. Its plans concerning its problems on moving its residents and visitors from point to point in the next decades? Does the state even have any plans besides more and more roads. More and more rental cars. Thats probably part of it rental cars mean more revenue for the state. Forget the train the state would lose out on all that tax money tagged on to car rentals.
I ended up deciding over the summer Fla is no longer a place a number of retirees should look to. It isn't just the decision not to deal with transit projects, its the states refusal to live in modern day America. It seems like a state that doesn't acknowledge the fact its a retirement state as well as a tourist state, yet offers so little for people as they grow to old to drive. Maybe its a good thing there are more and more people, that find they have no other choice but to cross this state off their list. At least less people moving in means some help with population control. Unfortunately it will be the people that would have paid taxes to the state. The ones purchasing a home and thier purchase power to the local economies that they would have lived in.
You made a wise choice--this governor is creating a state where no one, especially retirees would want to live. I can't imagine that new businesses would want to come here, either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimrob1
I ended up deciding over the summer Fla is no longer a place a number of retirees should look to. It isn't just the decision not to deal with transit projects, its the states refusal to live in modern day America. It seems like a state that doesn't acknowledge the fact its a retirement state as well as a tourist state, yet offers so little for people as they grow to old to drive. Maybe its a good thing there are more and more people, that find they have no other choice but to cross this state off their list. At least less people moving in means some help with population control. Unfortunately it will be the people that would have paid taxes to the state. The ones purchasing a home and thier purchase power to the local economies that they would have lived in.
Those two statements are not inconsistent. Why should FL build something that has no guarantee of turning a profit or ever becoming self-sustaining? Heck, even the metros in NY and Chicago have a hard time doing that.
Um, there is never a guarantee that something will turn a profit. The Florida's Turnpike had 400% cost estimate overrun when being constructed. DC's Metro and the Bay Area's BART are successful while Miami's Metrofail is the model of ineptitude. All extracted federal funds from the same program. Floridians just have a history of transportation mismanagement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chopchop0
Rick Scott and Chris Christie in NJ know a boondoggle when they see one.
Is "boondoggle" another word for "gridlock coupled with high unemployment rates". Because those are the unifying characteristics of FL and NJ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chopchop0
Didn't you just acknowledge that
"Florida loses about three cents on the dollar"
??
And because Florida is the third largest state in population and fourth largest in GSP they are still gaining tax revenue from bigger losers further up on the list. You touched on this below but came to a false conclusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chopchop0
There is no way to fix that inequity except to get rid of the federal personal income tax. That is the main driver of revenue for the federal government, and states like CA and NY have a higher proportion of high-wage earners than places like MS, or AR.
To your false conclusion. Yes CA and NY have the highest proportion of high-wage earners but you are assuming they are 1 and 2 on the list of lost cents on the dollar. Actually they are eighth and ninth. They are the true losers in the Red State Welfare Bonanza along with Minnesota. New Jersey and Connecticut only average getting back about 65 cents on the dollar but they don't produce commensurately as much as their GSPs. They are high wage states because their residents make their high wages in New York City.
Conversely, CA and NY have two of the top three highest GSPs but neither rank in the top 10 in wages. (To Florida's defense, it is a pretty big loser in its own right which is why it is incomprehensible that the Governor is turning down the transportation money and suing the federal government over health care). Alaska is the big winner: only New Mexico and Mississippi receive more cents on the dollar than Alaska yet Alaska has the sixth highest wages in the U.S. On top of that, they have only the 45th highest GSP. Although that is a function of their small population, that is only all the more reason why they should be nowhere near the top of the list.
Well, so much for the discussion on economics, Florida can give back all the money it wants. Maybe New York will take it and build high speed rail upstate so it can recoup all of the property taxes it loses to suburbs in New Jersey and Connecticut. If Florida wants to help the United States maybe Rick Scott should block Medicare payments and implement a state income tax to pay for its fair shaire of Medicaid rather than getting $57 federal for every $43 it spends. But that wouldn't be politically expedient on his part.
I don't even think there is auto emission testing in that state and thats obvious in interior Fla.
How is it "obvious"? Florida doesn't have any more pollution than many other states (with testing). Emissions testing is just another scheme to get peoples money.
Glad to see a more or less bipartisan opposition to Rick Scott's blunder. This morning a representative for high speed rail explained how Rick Scott essentially ignored guarantees from HSR development companies that would absorbed cost overruns and ridership guarantees and subsidies for the next 30 years!
"International teams that were expected to bid on the Florida project would have to guarantee that there would be no cost overruns and the system would run without subsidies, he said."
How did Rick Scott make his decision?:
The governor made his decision before FDOT updated ridership and revenue projections -- scheduled for completion within two weeks -- although Scott said he reviewed available highlights.
Instead Scott relied on a controversial January report by the libertarian think tank Reason Foundation, which contended Florida's project could cost $3 billion more than projected based on experience elsewhere. Robert Poole, the foundation's transportation director, was a member of Scott's economic transition team created before he took office to advise him.
Scott also reviewed reports by the conservative Heritage Foundation and the Florida Chamber Foundation, said Scott's deputy press secretary Amy Graham.
Way to go Rick! From someone who made his fortune off (more or less stealing) government subsidized healthcare, his hard right approach to this issue is sickening and frustrating.
Let's also forget about the intangible and economic losses. FLorida is trying to position itself as an innovative, forward-thinking state that wants to attract high paying tech, sciences and bio oriented business.... good luck with that when the state is seen as rejecting opportunity.
Meanwhile, my tax dollars have to pay for roads five people use who live at the end of a 10 mile road in BFE central Florida. The interstate highway and local road system is a constant money pit, yet nobody seems to care. I wonder why.
I can see why some people would support the high speed rail, but let's look at this thing from a PRACTICAL standpoint.
The goals with this thing are...(I presume)...
1-Get cars off the road by having people take the train b/t Tampa and Orlando
2-Provide a progressive means of transit that doesn't exist now
I can' think of anything else.
Let's say that those ARE real, achievable goals. Now...what about the logistics of actually using this? Let's lay out the 5 possible user scenarios....
1- Let's say a tourist family of 4 flies into Orlando and wants to spend a day at the beach in Clearwater. They decide to use the HSRL to do so...so they take a taxi from their hotel to the train station. They then take the train to Tampa, and get a taxi to the beach. To get back to Orlando, they do all of this in reverse, of course. Taxi fares in Orlando are, say, $15 bucks each way, and say..$25 bucks each way in Tampa. The train tickets cost, say..$10 each way. That's a grand total of $160 to get from Orlando to Clearwater beach. Also, the family spends a total of 2.5 hours between waiting for cabs and riding in them. AND they have to lug all of their beach stuff with them, and they can't get around anywhere in Clearwater when they're there, except walking.
How is that better than renting a car in Orlando?
2-Businessperson lives in Tampa and regularly visits clients in Orlando. This person lives in, say...New Tampa. So this person drives to the train station (30 minute ride), pays $10 to ride the train to Orlando...and then has to visit three clients that day in Orlando. How does he get around when he steps off the train? Does he/she wait for, and pay for a cab to each destination? Take buses (really? do you know how long it take to ride the bus anywhere?).
How is this cheaper or more convenient than driving your own car?
3-Family in Orlando decides they want to go to Busch Gardens. They drive to the train station and board the train. Get off in downtown Tampa and get a cab to BG. Spend the day, then get a cab back to the station and go home. Total train fares-$80. Total cab fares-$40. Total transportation costs-$120.
Now let's say they drive instead...gas would cost about $40 and parking at BG is about $20. Total damage=$60.
Why is the train better?
4-Family of poor people in Tampa want to visit relatives in Orlando. A family of 5, let's say. They take the bus to the train station, and get on the train, and several days later, they take it back. bus fare and train fares total around $110.
That might be a reasonable thing for some poor people...until you realize that they could rent car and come out cheaper anyway.
5-Person living in downtown Tampa wants to get to Disney World. He walks to the train station and pays $10 to get on the train, and visits Disney for the day, and then gets back on the train and goes home. Total damage, $20.
BARGAIN! WE have a winner! Until...wait...not a lot of people live downtown, and the ones that do won't be be swarming to Disney in large enough numbers to make this worth it.
So...those of you who sit on an imaginary high horse and tell the rest of we're idiots for not loving the idea of HSR...have you thought this through in a practical sense? I think a lot of people just think "oh cool! high speed rail, like in Europe! It'll be just like when I visited Germany!"
One more thing...the projected time to get from downtown Tampa to Orlando Intl Airport is 1 hour, 4 minutes.
Right now, Amtrak offers service between Tampa and Orlando that takes 1 hour and 51 minutes.
Is that worth the tax money?
I think that train is just once a day and you would have to stay over night to get back home. It can't be used for say, getting to and from work unless you only wanted to be home on weekends.
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If Florida wants to help the United States maybe Rick Scott should block Medicare payments and implement a state income tax to pay for its fair shaire of Medicaid rather than getting $57 federal for every $43 it spends. But that wouldn't be politically expedient on his part.
