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You cannot leave Philadelphia out of top 5, whether you like the city of not. Seattle is not a top 5.
Seattle has more downtown than Philadeliphia ? Seattle just opened its second downtown Whole Foods. It has more skyscrapers. It has more office space Center City which has 42 million square ft office space. Seattle has 70 million with 2.6 million under construction. Seattle has 15,000 +hotel rooms With 2100 under construction. While center city has 12,000. It's interesting you put Philly center city over Seattle when it has a smaller built environment. It has pretty much same densities . I would put the top 5 functioning as .
1. New York
2. Chicago
3. San Fransisco
4. Boston
5. Seattle
These cities all have large concentration of grocery stores. They all have multiple large department stores. Multiple movie theater complexes. Multiple successful malls not dead. Philadelphia is not as prominent as it used to be.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironcouger
Seattle has more downtown than Philadeliphia ? Seattle just opened its second downtown Whole Foods. It has more skyscrapers. It has more office space Center City which has 42 million square ft office space. Seattle has 70 million with 2.6 million under construction. Seattle has 15,000 +hotel rooms With 2100 under construction. While center city has 12,000. It's interesting you put Philly center city over Seattle when it has a smaller built environment. It has pretty much same densities . I would put the top 5 functioning as .
1. New York
2. Chicago
3. San Fransisco
4. Boston
5. Seattle
These cities all have large concentration of grocery stores. They all have multiple large department stores. Multiple movie theater complexes. Multiple successful malls not dead. Philadelphia is not as prominent as it used to be.
By most of this criteria and stats that you posted here Washington DC's downtown would have to be in not only the top 5, but honestly 3rd or 4th. It's the third largest downtown in the nation with twice as much office space and hotels/ convention space as Seattle. And has all the other qualities you mentioned and then some with better museums and outdoor space than most of the cities in your top 5.
Seattle is small by footprint in its downtown, there are plenty skyscrapers dotting the skyline, but on the ground it simply isn't the size of the others. Philadelphia is a classic downtown more reminiscent of Manhattan than Seattle is, in fact all of the NE cities are more like it than Seattle is. Seattle still has surface parking in its downtown core, although probably not for long. People on the East Coast acknowledge Seattle after the country's more popular downtowns, NY, Chicago, SF, Bos, DC, Philly. I think Seattle is still on the outside looking in, but definitely next in line.
If DT DC includes places like DuPont Circle and L'Enfant Plaza, the DT Seattle includes the dense parts of Capitol Hill, First Hill, Lower Queen Anne, South Lake Union, Pioneer Square, etc. It's actually pretty expansive.
People like to latch onto definitions then defend them with their lives. This is common when they don't really understand how things work, or their brains have trouble grasping nuance.
What's "downtown" is subjective.
And anyone who's been on CD for a while should know why a parallel comparison generally starts with some larger definition of "the city" than what the central administrative district covers.
People will define a city's downtown to whatever fits their particular narrative.
For me, it's inconsequential what is officially a downtown and what's not. For me, the "downtown" ends where the urban development ends.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays25
If DT DC includes places like DuPont Circle and L'Enfant Plaza, the DT Seattle includes the dense parts of Capitol Hill, First Hill, Lower Queen Anne, South Lake Union, Pioneer Square, etc. It's actually pretty expansive.
My personal definition of Downtown DC does not include DuPont Circle, and only by default includes L'Enfant Plaza.
People on the East Coast acknowledge Seattle after the country's more popular downtowns, NY, Chicago, SF, Bos, DC, Philly. I think Seattle is still on the outside looking in, but definitely next in line.
I'd have to agree with this take. There's a lot of qualitative features to a fully functioning and well-rounded downtown, as well, that won't get picked up by statistics, like pedestrian experience, finely-grained structures, and having a "layered" feel generally where the city has aged over time and doesn't feel too dominated by one era in time or too dominated by a certain population subset.
High-rises/office space certainly adds to structural density, but that's one piece of a very complex puzzle that cultivates a successful and highly-regarded downtown.
I'd have to agree with this take. There's a lot of qualitative features to a fully functioning and well-rounded downtown, as well, that won't get picked up by statistics, like pedestrian experience, finely-grained structures, and having a "layered" feel generally where the city has aged over time and doesn't feel too dominated by one era in time or too dominated by a certain population subset.
High-rises/office space certainly adds to structural density, but that's one piece of a very complex puzzle that cultivates a successful and highly-regarded downtown.
I would also agree that's why I place Seattle ahead of Philly And D.C.. Granted I've only lived in downtown's on the West Coast. I have lived in several downtown's with out a car and realize the important of having everything within walking distance. Like the time I bought a bar at Cost Plus World Market in downtown Seattle I was able to wheel it to my tower. Or the fact I love having several grocery options. I would stay downtown six months at a time and never leave. I think a downtown needs to act like a whole functioning city. That's why I said New York and Boston on East Coast. They still have multiple Large stores, Movie theater complexes, grocery stores and malls. Everything I looked for when I lived downtown. So my thought process was what downtown's could I live in and never have to leave. Think shopping small and large, Entertainment complexes, night life and not just drinking I don't drink and also parks . Even Downtown Seattle has entertainment complexes downtown . Of the cities I lived in on the west coast Seattle was most complete. So I'm a pedestrian view point not someone looking in at the city.
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Well I agree with most of that except that DC checks each of the boxes you've listed and then some with regards to downtown amenities. Movie theaters, grocery stores, multiple entertainment venues, large department stores, upscale and midscale shopping, restaurants/nightlife all are present there. The only thing I'd like to see is more DT residential population added, all the other tools are currently there to the standards you've mentioned.
DC runs away from downtowns like Seattle in, public transit, tourism, museums, and day time population added. During the day it becomes a poor mans Manhattan south.
I would also agree that's why I place Seattle ahead of Philly And D.C..
If you agree with him, it's puzzling that you'd rank Seattle ahead of Philadelphia. Philadelphia is very historic and that layering effect he mentioned is quite evident. Downtown Philadelphia has features that necessarily can't be quantified that collectively make for a well-rounded downtown: the uber historic Old City, the focal point that is City Hall, Independence Mall, the bohemian vibe of South Street, the grand boulevard that is Ben Franklin Parkway, the renowned urban public space that is Rittenhouse Square, etc. That's in addition to the riverfront(s), retail, residential, office space, transit, museums, cultural venues, etc. And yes, downtown Philadelphia has grocery stores, department stores, movie theaters, etc.
DC is set up a bit differently but those elements are in place in its greater downtown area as well.
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