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U.S. has 5 fully functioning downtowns: 1. NY 2. Chicago 3. SF 4. Philly 5. Seattle
Fully functional downtowns are complete employment, retail and commercial center with very good housing and tourism base.
Rest of U.S. downtowns are just up and coming or moribund. This is strictly from being totally activated and being a true "Center"
to me there are 6 (NYC, Chicago, Boston, Philly, DC, & SF)
A few close including Seattle (just feels like something isn't quite there yet), LA, Pittsburgh, NOLA, Baltimore
Others impressive yet more singular (or not all parts) like Miami, Houston, Dallas, Denver, San Diego, Cleveland, Cincy, Maybe St Louis and Detroit in this mix
So you agree then. When it at least has what you'd find in a typical mall, it'll be more like a top-tier downtown.
Personally I don’t consider DTLA to be “top tier” and I doubt that I would consider it to be top tier if a bunch of mall stores opened either. There’s a place for those stores, but I’d rather more uniqueness than the same stores as everywhere else. And I feel like we have that already in the Fashion District. We have top stores that sell clothes all over the west coast and the country. If you go to a non-chain fashion store in Seattle, I’d bet that they get the majority of their clothes in DTLA. We have many, many more shopping options than most downtowns in the top tier.
We all have our strengths. Seattle has hundreds of incubator-type and one-person businesses at the Pike Place Market, as well as the tourist trap waterfront, the main Nordstrom, and generally the first of whatever concept Starbucks and Amazon want to try.
As for your point Kidphilly, I'd say we're not in the top five, but are probably #6. The answer would be dramatically different today vs. a few years ago.
to me there are 6 (NYC, Chicago, Boston, Philly, DC, & SF)
A few close including Seattle (just feels like something isn't quite there yet), LA, Pittsburgh, NOLA, Baltimore
Others impressive yet more singular (or not all parts) like Miami, Houston, Dallas, Denver, San Diego, Cleveland, Cincy, Maybe St Louis and Detroit in this mix
As a resident of Baltimore, I can say that Baltimore has a long way to go before it has a fully functional downtown. A huge chunk of downtown, the old retail district on the West Side, which is pretty much a disaster, has only made baby steps towards coming back. There are some good projects in the pipeline (but like so much else in Baltimore) the road back is long and daunting. Anyway, rebuilding the West Side and also Old Town would create a walkable core extending out a minimum of 3/4 of a mile from the center in every direction - the bare minimum that is required for a complete downtown. By a complete downtown I mean a downtown that provides all regular shopping and services internally.
The second requirement (and one that is hard to even imagine) is that there be excellent transit from downtown to the rest of the rowhouse city that extends 2 to 4 miles from the center of downtown in every direction.
Anyway, feel free to check in ten years from now for a progress report. Some progress is inevitable, but, as I said above, it is a long way back!
Actually, Milwaukee has a fully functioning downtown. Lots of new construction, condos and apartments, AND tourists, as downtown is on Lake Michigan. It's always bustling. I guess retail leaves something to be desired, but if you count Milwaukee's Third Ward, retail is taken care of. You probably could count it, as the two adjoin.
Works for me, especially since so many other US cities have expanded their downtowns well beyond their traditional boundaries in recent decades. The 3rd Ward is a small area and you can easily and quickly walk from it to 3rd St. and Wisconsin Ave., the traditional heart of downtown Milwaukee.
We all have our strengths. Seattle has hundreds of incubator-type and one-person businesses at the Pike Place Market, as well as the tourist trap waterfront, the main Nordstrom, and generally the first of whatever concept Starbucks and Amazon want to try.
As for your point Kidphilly, I'd say we're not in the top five, but are probably #6. The answer would be dramatically different today vs. a few years ago.
Seattle is probably 8th at the moment (behind NYC, Chicago, SF, Philly, Boston, DC, LA) but you feel the energy in the city these days.
It's really growing in stature very quickly.
Not sure why you are trying to downplay the retail scene in Downtown LA. It is pretty massive and diverse. There is actually quite a lot of different wholesale market stores especially in the fashion district. You can go to some of these places and have custom made dresses/suits rather than off the rack. Lots of youtube videos of the fashion district. Few places in all of America have what Downtown LA has and that makes its retail scene unique. If you want to look down at type of swap meet fashion as beneath you, thats fine. But with literally hundreds of these types of stores, plenty to keep one busy.
But the typical shopping mall USA type person, Downtown LA lacks that scene especially from top and middle end stores.
It has Macys, Target, Zara, H&M, Victorias Secret, Brooks Brothers, Ross, Burlington, Nordstrom Rack, Sheik Shoes, Footaction, and some others
Boutiques like middle upscale - COS, BKNR, Acne Studios, APC, Gentle Monster and many more lesser known.
Will get in near future Apple Store, Uniqlo, Jordan flagship store, Vans Flagship, West Elm furniture.
So overall there isnt a lot every type of shop in you would find in a typical shopping mall. You wont find the type of shopping like in Rodeo Drive Beverly Hills or a Melrose. It will take time, but there is still a lot of places to shop in Downtown if one needs some shopping.
When the Broadway Trade Center reopens across from the under construction Apple store, more retail space. When the Oceanwide development opens in late 2019, with the large 2 level mall across Staples Center/LA Live it might bring in higher end shopping especially with the Grand Hyatt and million dollar condos all around.
Really compared to San Francisco and Seattle that's very little retail downtown.
Seattle is probably 8th at the moment (behind NYC, Chicago, SF, Philly, Boston, DC, LA) but you feel the energy in the city these days.
It's really growing in stature very quickly.
DC and LA are both examples of downtowns that don't do all the downtown-type stuff.
And both combined are growing far more slowly than greater Downtown Seattle by itself.
Ironcouger I'd add Philly. It's another slow-grower (not by its standards, but vs. the really fast-growing cities). but it's very cohesive and is probably #1 in walking environment.
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