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Are there other large MSAs where the 2 main cities are in adjacent counties Cleveland (Cuyahoga County) and Akron (Summit County) yet are in separate MSAs?
Dayton (Montgomery county) Springfield (Clark county)
Are there other large MSAs where the 2 main cities are in adjacent counties Cleveland (Cuyahoga County) and Akron (Summit County) yet are in separate MSAs?
- Research Triangle (this one's especially weird because the city limits of Raleigh and Durham actually extend into each other's MSAs)
- SLC-Provo (should be in the MSA imo)
- Reno-Carson City (ditto)
- Spokane-Coeur d'Alene
I was trying to find a past discussion on this topic because I didn't want to create a new one, but this one works.
By the current formula it's not even a question whether Cleveland and Akron should be combined, it's now more about a political fight with Akron trying to team up with Canton and form their own MSA, even though they are well short of the cutoff (only about 20 percent combined commuter rate between the two counties).
In one of the previous topics on this issue someone linked an article that broke down how close some of the metros were to meeting the qualifications. Cleveland-Akron missed in 2018 by less than 0.5 percent. That article alluded that since then, the two have crossed that threshold.
And the released population numbers indicate that those numbers should continue to grow even higher. The communities in northern Summit County and northern Portage County that already have commuter rates into Cuyahoga of anywhere between 35 to 60 percent, combined to grow by 8,000 (5,200 for Summit and 2,900 for Portage) despite those two counties losing population over the past decade. It's nothing new, because that has been happening since the 80s or 90s as those areas became suburban exurbs of Cleveland.
Add in that Cuyahoga County has been much stronger in adding jobs than Summit County and more people from Summit have likely found jobs in Cuyahoga anyway. Bottom line is that the population centers of both Summit and Portage counties have been moving north in the past few decades and it doesn't appear to be slowing. About 140,000 people now live in those areas that are more aligned with Cleveland, or about 20 percent of the Akron MSA's total population.
While Akron's MSA has benefitted from those population increases in northern Summit, it has also been on the other end of the stick as well. The Akron area's strongest growth was in Wadsworth and Sharon Township which combined to grow by about 3,500 this past decade. But those two places, while definitely in the Akron area (I live there), are in Medina County which is in the Cleveland MSA. Granted, that's only about 35,000 people so Akron still benefits way more by getting those northern Summit/Portage burbs even losing the extreme SE Medina County portion to Cleveland.
Hopefully, in 2023 it will be over and the Akron and Canton officials suck it up and realize they meet the same criteria for an MSA as any of the others in the country (Canton would be pulled in due to the 20 percent commuter rate between it and Akron ... and then an 8 or so percent commuter rate with Cleveland).
Wayne County (population of 117,000) would also be very close as well since it has a one-way rate of about 5 percent to Cuyahoga, 8 percent to Summit and 9 percent to Stark (or about 22 percent combined). It would need roughly 3 percent of those counties' combined commuters going into to Wayne, which is close (Wayne pulls a lot of Summit and Stark due to Fortune 500 Smucker's being headquartered there).
That would put it at either 3,192,044 (No. 18 based on 2020 numbers just below San Diego and just ahead of Tampa) or at 3,308,938 (No. 17 passing San Diego). ... Of course, unless there is a drastic shift in population trends both San Diego and Tampa, along with Denver, would repass it in the coming years and it would land at the No. 19 spot, which is exactly where it sits in the media market rankings.
Do you think this will happen and what are the postive outcomes of such a decision? I ask this because on the ground as a lived out experience all of the cities still feel as if they are on their own(even Akron/Canton).
Do you think this will happen and what are the postive outcomes of such a decision? I ask this because on the ground as a lived out experience all of the cities still feel as if they are on their own(even Akron/Canton).
In my opinion: Yes it could happen, though I think the commuting patterns are still too weak for it to happen by the 2023 alignment. Would it change much? Not particularly, not much would change but the paper that shows how many people lived in the Cleveland MSA.
From a less tangible perspective the NE Ohio region is statistically fractured and appears smaller on paper than what it is, and some people make relocation decisions based on population alone. It would give the Cleveland area a better representation of size and perhaps give it more visibility for those looking to move to a 3+ million metro. To a lesser degree the same works with how certain corporate brands decide to place locations, so I do think it matters.
Do you think this will happen and what are the postive outcomes of such a decision? I ask this because on the ground as a lived out experience all of the cities still feel as if they are on their own(even Akron/Canton).
If trends hold and if there aren't significant changes to the formula, then it will happen. It just missed the 25 percent in 2018, and sometime within the past years it has reached that number (according to an article that was posted on this site sometime within the past year that broke down some of the close metros).
But I believe there it would have to meet the mark for five years before it officially would be combined. So even if it continues to meet the mark in 2023, then 2024 would be the earliest five-year period. Since, they only redo metros every five years, it wouldn't officially go in place until 2028.
Who knows what is going to happen, though? Maybe it does get broken down by census tract or zip code instead of entire counties. In that case, they would remain separate, but Cleveland would pick up a bunch of northern Summit County and northern Portage County and Akron would pick up Wadsworth and Sharon Township.
It would net the Cleveland MSA about 105,000 total (140,000 from northern Summit/Portage minus 35,000 Wadsworth/Sharon), putting Cleveland around 2,193,000 and Akron down to about 595,000 using 2020 numbers (unless Akron picks up some territory in Stark County ... Lake Township/Hartville which could put it back to 630,000).
Mijo brought up some of the benefits, here are some more:
1. For Akron (and a less degree Canton) - Some corporations looking to relocate won't even consider a metro under 1 million (see Amazon and its HQ2). That eliminates Akron and Canton right off the bat. Being combined with Cleveland would at least put them in the game. If a company is looking for an urban downtown tower, then it would go to Cleveland. But if they are looking for a suburban office park in the (combined metro), it very well could go to Richfield or Hudson, and be a huge boost to Summit County's tax revenue.
2. Federal funds are allocated based on population. A combined 3 million metro would have a better chance at landing additional funding for a comprehensive regional projects like transportation. Cleveland has been exploring expanding its rail system, including a link to Akron via the Cuyahoga Valley Railroad (that goes from downtown Cleveland into Canton), but with the state basically giving nothing for public transportation, that would be dependent on fed money. Securing funds to link the three would be the first step to eventually then landing more funding down the road for local expansions (in each city). Plus, you could merge the transit authorities into one entity, which should happen regardless. Greater Cleveland RTA has local bus connections with Akron Metro in northern Summit; then Metro has local connections with Canton's SARTA in southern Summit. Both Metro and SARTA run daily shuttles to downtown Cleveland (SARTA once in the morning and once in the evening; Metro is hourly). SARTA also runs shuttles to the downtown Metro transfer station in downtown Akron. Combining those (along with the smaller Portage, Medina, Lake and Lorain systems) could create a more streamlined system throughout the region.
3. As Mijo mentioned, some people do look at population when considering an area. Someone who is from the coasts (or internationally) looking to relocate to Ohio for lower cost of living but still wanting big-city amenities, could simply look at metro numbers (not knowing the dynamics of Northeast Ohio) and see Cincinnati is the largest, Columbus is No. 2 and Cleveland is No. 3 (not even realizing Akron and Canton are both within an hour). And moving to the Cleveland area doesn't rule out Summit County (look at the growth in Northern Summit that has been going on for 30 years). It doesn't even rule out northern Stark.
4. It seems like people in Akron and Canton are afraid they'll lose their identity. My response to that is whether there is a strong national identity to begin with? LeBron has no doubt upped Akron's profile, but I still hear it all the time from lifelong Akron residents (I'm among them them everyday afterall ... I'm about 5-6 miles from West Akron but in the Cleveland MSA) who joke about when they go out of town they just tell people they are from Cleveland because nobody knows where Akron is. I'd argue that since it would be designated the Cleveland-Akron (or Cleveland-Akron-Canton) MSA, those two would get more recognition because they would be listed along with the rest of the top 20 metros in the country. Right now, you have to scroll down to No. 83 for Akron and No. 137 for Canton.
- Research Triangle (this one's especially weird because the city limits of Raleigh and Durham actually extend into each other's MSAs)
- SLC-Provo (should be in the MSA imo)
- Reno-Carson City (ditto)
- Spokane-Coeur d'Alene
Hartford-Springfield aren’t in the same CSA either.
If trends hold and if there aren't significant changes to the formula, then it will happen. It just missed the 25 percent in 2018, and sometime within the past years it has reached that number (according to an article that was posted on this site sometime within the past year that broke down some of the close metros).
But I believe there it would have to meet the mark for five years before it officially would be combined. So even if it continues to meet the mark in 2023, then 2024 would be the earliest five-year period. Since, they only redo metros every five years, it wouldn't officially go in place until 2028.
Who knows what is going to happen, though? Maybe it does get broken down by census tract or zip code instead of entire counties. In that case, they would remain separate, but Cleveland would pick up a bunch of northern Summit County and northern Portage County and Akron would pick up Wadsworth and Sharon Township.
It would net the Cleveland MSA about 105,000 total (140,000 from northern Summit/Portage minus 35,000 Wadsworth/Sharon), putting Cleveland around 2,193,000 and Akron down to about 595,000 using 2020 numbers (unless Akron picks up some territory in Stark County ... Lake Township/Hartville which could put it back to 630,000).
Mijo brought up some of the benefits, here are some more:
1. For Akron (and a less degree Canton) - Some corporations looking to relocate won't even consider a metro under 1 million (see Amazon and its HQ2). That eliminates Akron and Canton right off the bat. Being combined with Cleveland would at least put them in the game. If a company is looking for an urban downtown tower, then it would go to Cleveland. But if they are looking for a suburban office park in the (combined metro), it very well could go to Richfield or Hudson, and be a huge boost to Summit County's tax revenue.
2. Federal funds are allocated based on population. A combined 3 million metro would have a better chance at landing additional funding for a comprehensive regional projects like transportation. Cleveland has been exploring expanding its rail system, including a link to Akron via the Cuyahoga Valley Railroad (that goes from downtown Cleveland into Canton), but with the state basically giving nothing for public transportation, that would be dependent on fed money. Securing funds to link the three would be the first step to eventually then landing more funding down the road for local expansions (in each city). Plus, you could merge the transit authorities into one entity, which should happen regardless. Greater Cleveland RTA has local bus connections with Akron Metro in northern Summit; then Metro has local connections with Canton's SARTA in southern Summit. Both Metro and SARTA run daily shuttles to downtown Cleveland (SARTA once in the morning and once in the evening; Metro is hourly). SARTA also runs shuttles to the downtown Metro transfer station in downtown Akron. Combining those (along with the smaller Portage, Medina, Lake and Lorain systems) could create a more streamlined system throughout the region.
3. As Mijo mentioned, some people do look at population when considering an area. Someone who is from the coasts (or internationally) looking to relocate to Ohio for lower cost of living but still wanting big-city amenities, could simply look at metro numbers (not knowing the dynamics of Northeast Ohio) and see Cincinnati is the largest, Columbus is No. 2 and Cleveland is No. 3 (not even realizing Akron and Canton are both within an hour). And moving to the Cleveland area doesn't rule out Summit County (look at the growth in Northern Summit that has been going on for 30 years). It doesn't even rule out northern Stark.
4. It seems like people in Akron and Canton are afraid they'll lose their identity. My response to that is whether there is a strong national identity to begin with? LeBron has no doubt upped Akron's profile, but I still hear it all the time from lifelong Akron residents (I'm among them them everyday afterall ... I'm about 5-6 miles from West Akron but in the Cleveland MSA) who joke about when they go out of town they just tell people they are from Cleveland because nobody knows where Akron is. I'd argue that since it would be designated the Cleveland-Akron (or Cleveland-Akron-Canton) MSA, those two would get more recognition because they would be listed along with the rest of the top 20 metros in the country. Right now, you have to scroll down to No. 83 for Akron and No. 137 for Canton.
Here's the issue though: while a company may not consider moving to a MSA under 1 million population, let's say the candidate is Akron proper or even Summit County generally.
How is the adjacent county, as in directly next to Summit, and the base of a 2,000,000+ MSA dismissed as not being there?
Here's the issue though: while a company may not consider moving to a MSA under 1 million population, let's say the candidate is Akron proper or even Summit County generally.
How is the adjacent county, as in directly next to Summit, and the base of a 2,000,000+ MSA dismissed as not being there?
It doesn't change anything. If anything, it at least gives Akron a chance.
For one, if it's a big move, chances are every metro is going to try to come up with some package. Separately, Akron automatically goes behind Cleveland to begin with. Akron's proposal would have to be "we are only 700,000 but we are right next to Cleveland which is over 2 million." How's that going to go?
Combined, not only does 3 million look better than 2 million, but the site selected may very well be in Summit County (depending on what a company is looking for).
I'll reiterate this, they should only merge if they meet the criteria (which it appears they will based off the current formula). The only reason it's even an issue here is that Akron and Canton officials have already publicly said they will fight it and they want to form their own "Metroplex" (yes, the very original name they chose) regardless of whether they meet the criteria (they won't).
To me, it's just asinine, but the Balkanized mindset of this region is why it has lagged for so long.
I'll put it like this. Canton initially set out to get the NFL Draft on its own in 2020. It made sense. Canton is the birthplace of the NFL, the Hall of Fame is located there, and 2020 was the 100th anniversary of the league. Guess what, the NFL said, "we can't do that."
Canton teamed with Cleveland then in a last ditch effort, but at that point Las Vegas' proposal was so far ahead that it got it (COVID wiped it out, but that's moot for this).
Anyway, Cleveland-Canton came back with a more detailed proposal the following year and landed the draft for this past year in a joint effort. First three rounds in Cleveland, final four at the Hall of Fame in Canton. Again COVID messed that up as it was all done in Cleveland due to logistics, but it wasn't like it was ever going to be solely in Canton anyway.
If trends hold and if there aren't significant changes to the formula, then it will happen. It just missed the 25 percent in 2018, and sometime within the past years it has reached that number (according to an article that was posted on this site sometime within the past year that broke down some of the close metros).
But I believe there it would have to meet the mark for five years before it officially would be combined. So even if it continues to meet the mark in 2023, then 2024 would be the earliest five-year period. Since, they only redo metros every five years, it wouldn't officially go in place until 2028.
Who knows what is going to happen, though? Maybe it does get broken down by census tract or zip code instead of entire counties. In that case, they would remain separate, but Cleveland would pick up a bunch of northern Summit County and northern Portage County and Akron would pick up Wadsworth and Sharon Township.
It would net the Cleveland MSA about 105,000 total (140,000 from northern Summit/Portage minus 35,000 Wadsworth/Sharon), putting Cleveland around 2,193,000 and Akron down to about 595,000 using 2020 numbers (unless Akron picks up some territory in Stark County ... Lake Township/Hartville which could put it back to 630,000).
Mijo brought up some of the benefits, here are some more:
1. For Akron (and a less degree Canton) - Some corporations looking to relocate won't even consider a metro under 1 million (see Amazon and its HQ2). That eliminates Akron and Canton right off the bat. Being combined with Cleveland would at least put them in the game. If a company is looking for an urban downtown tower, then it would go to Cleveland. But if they are looking for a suburban office park in the (combined metro), it very well could go to Richfield or Hudson, and be a huge boost to Summit County's tax revenue.
2. Federal funds are allocated based on population. A combined 3 million metro would have a better chance at landing additional funding for a comprehensive regional projects like transportation. Cleveland has been exploring expanding its rail system, including a link to Akron via the Cuyahoga Valley Railroad (that goes from downtown Cleveland into Canton), but with the state basically giving nothing for public transportation, that would be dependent on fed money. Securing funds to link the three would be the first step to eventually then landing more funding down the road for local expansions (in each city). Plus, you could merge the transit authorities into one entity, which should happen regardless. Greater Cleveland RTA has local bus connections with Akron Metro in northern Summit; then Metro has local connections with Canton's SARTA in southern Summit. Both Metro and SARTA run daily shuttles to downtown Cleveland (SARTA once in the morning and once in the evening; Metro is hourly). SARTA also runs shuttles to the downtown Metro transfer station in downtown Akron. Combining those (along with the smaller Portage, Medina, Lake and Lorain systems) could create a more streamlined system throughout the region.
3. As Mijo mentioned, some people do look at population when considering an area. Someone who is from the coasts (or internationally) looking to relocate to Ohio for lower cost of living but still wanting big-city amenities, could simply look at metro numbers (not knowing the dynamics of Northeast Ohio) and see Cincinnati is the largest, Columbus is No. 2 and Cleveland is No. 3 (not even realizing Akron and Canton are both within an hour). And moving to the Cleveland area doesn't rule out Summit County (look at the growth in Northern Summit that has been going on for 30 years). It doesn't even rule out northern Stark.
4. It seems like people in Akron and Canton are afraid they'll lose their identity. My response to that is whether there is a strong national identity to begin with? LeBron has no doubt upped Akron's profile, but I still hear it all the time from lifelong Akron residents (I'm among them them everyday afterall ... I'm about 5-6 miles from West Akron but in the Cleveland MSA) who joke about when they go out of town they just tell people they are from Cleveland because nobody knows where Akron is. I'd argue that since it would be designated the Cleveland-Akron (or Cleveland-Akron-Canton) MSA, those two would get more recognition because they would be listed along with the rest of the top 20 metros in the country. Right now, you have to scroll down to No. 83 for Akron and No. 137 for Canton.
I don't disagree with where you are coming from overall but I do have some questions out of curiostity.
What communities from Northern Summit and Portage are you "giving" to Cleveland? North East Summit County and Northwest Portage are not 140,000 people. The communities that are distinctly Cleveland burbs in these locales are around 80-90k in my count.
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