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Even seeing the "greying" of Robert DeNiro, Al Paccino, Joe Mantegna, Danny DeVito, John Turturro, etc, and other Italian Americans is kind of symbolic.
There is a sense of "pride" in the younger generation that has connected to the older generation, but as people have mentioned, those under the age of 40 never really experienced the "old-school" culture, so it will eventually continue to fade off.
Here is a clip of one of the larger annual Italian fests in Chicagoland. You can see that the younger generation has some love for the culture, but it's still fading rapidly.
Yes. I have seen a noticeable fading of Italian American culture since the early 2000’s. It’s been a slow death, but a noticeable one. The deaths of prominent “wise-guys” that were the embodiment of stereotypical Italian American culture on the big screen. The younger generation is way more mainstream, as is the case with all cultures. Little Italys are shells of their former selves. Outside of a few places, you will not find the kind of Italian American enclaves that I remember as a kid in the 90’s in many cities. True Italian American culture is a shell of what it used to be, no matter where you live. To say otherwise is complete denial.
As a Polish American (3rd generation) outside of cities like Chicago and NYC, we do not really have the same degree of presence as Italian Americans. But even in Chicago, for over a decade now, while there are still many Polish Americans, they have become almost completely assimilated, and the distinctive “culture” has faded.
Check out Buffalo, where there is still a pretty good Polish presence there. Smaller Northeastern cities like New Britain CT and Scranton PA(big Irish population too) as well.
To bring it back to the topic, I also wonder as to how many of these guys that come to mind are as Italian as we think they are? For instance, Robert De Niro's dad, who is originally from Syracuse, is actually half Irish.
Yes, it's a tiny amount. Probably an eyebrow, ok maybe both, who knows.
First, it's not statistically meaningful. I've had the same sibling doing these tests multiple times and other than the 3 largest portions - which do reflect our family origins going back several generations - all the rest of the portions, much smaller, vary from report to report. It's a racket.
Second, people tend to underestimate the role of wars/disasters, migrations, rape and incest in deep ancestry (particularly the last two), and that while someone may have provided DNA to your line at some point in history, that doesn't mean that ancestor provided any cultural or epigenetic formation to the life born from that conception. (And, no, the "Black Irish" are not descended from shipwrecked crews from the 1588 Spanish Armada.)
People Reporting Italian as Single Ancestry in 2020
New York - 1,030,753
Philadelphia - 258,426
Boston - 208,987
Chicago - 184,662
Miami - 137,413
Pittsburgh - 118,663
Los Angeles - 115,541
Detroit - 90,649
Providence - 82,015
New Haven - 76,711
Washington - 71,808
San Francisco - 65,531
Buffalo - 64,399
Cleveland - 62,217
Baltimore - 49,084
St. Louis - 39,542
Syracuse - 37,376
New Orleans - 29,767
First, it's not statistically meaningful. I've had the same sibling doing these tests multiple times and other than the 3 largest portions - which do reflect our family origins going back several generations - all the rest of the portions, much smaller, vary from report to report. It's a racket.
The purpose of that post was to bring further evidence that the Italian culture will not completely dissappear as people will continue to discover things about themselves that in this case will tie them to Italy and/or Italians. But there are many other aspects that I didn't mentioned because they aren't pertinent to the topic of the thread, such the recurrence appearance of such origin (versus others which appears and dissappears depending on the edition of the test) and other things such as matches with actual people including some Italians that live in Italy (an even greater surprise considering these types of tests aren't particularly popular over there).
Quote:
Originally Posted by P Larsen
Second, people tend to underestimate the role of wars/disasters, migrations, rape and incest in deep ancestry (particularly the last two), and that while someone may have provided DNA to your line at some point in history, that doesn't mean that ancestor provided any cultural or epigenetic formation to the life born from that conception. (And, no, the "Black Irish" are not descended from shipwrecked crews from the 1588 Spanish Armada.)
That's the case with everybody and it can imply parts of the larger shares of someone DNA or one of the smaller ones or vice versa. It could also imply a part of the smaller ones, could imply a small part of each one, etc. In the same token it could be a part of the larger ones while not at all for the smaller ones.
Personally, I think on the one hand not many people are aware that it's something that implies absolutely everyone and, on the other hand, others could have a tendency to exaggerate this aspect. For exampke, whenever this is mentioned not many would also think that most of the births within any given generation are the results of things such as rape and/or incest (more so the former than the latter). A perfect example would be the case of the Vikings and the Celts with the long held belief the former were known for raping the women in the villages they invaded, particularly of the Celts. A DNA study was done a few years ago on the remains of msny Celts in areas known for constant Viking raids and invasions, and instead of finding Viking DNA it was the relative lack of it that rose eyebrows. Obviously it doesn't mean things such as rape were not happening among the Celts, just its more difficult since it basically was a Celt-on-Celt thing. What it does means is how overblown was the image of Vikings prone to rapes during their raids. In all likelihood that was an image created by the Celts themselves to further increase the fear of the Vikings, somewhat similar to what is done today particularly in the USA regarding incentivizing one ancestry over another, especially when identity is based so much on the perception of the origin of a particular person.
Today two perfect examples the case of people who for various reasons are put up for adoption. Years later, often into adulthood, many learn who their biological parents were. From that point forward, many try to learn more of who they were, where they csme from, whst was their culture(s), etc.
The other example are those that grow up with their biological parents, but one was abusive to them. As adults they may not likevthe abusive one and might keep a distance from him, perhaps never see him again. Lets say the father was Italian and the mother Greek. Would it shock anyone if the abused by his father rejects his father ehile continues to celebrate his Italian ancestry abd culture? If it was Italian culture that made men to be abusive, all with Italian fathers would be abused by him and that is not the case. Italy and Italian culture are not to blame for why the abuser became like that. So, in that case the survivor of that situation could perfectly reject his father while continue to hold Italian culture in high regard.
Anyway, this is beyond the scope of the topic of this thread. I repeat, the point was that the compkete elimination of Italian culture is not what is happening, but rather the Italian culture is melting along with the other cultures to further enrich American culture. Even if all aspects of Italian culture were to be part of the mainstream, everyone will be able to tell what aspects of the mainstream comes from the Italians.
People Reporting Italian as Single Ancestry in 2020
New York - 1,030,753
Philadelphia - 258,426
Boston - 208,987
Chicago - 184,662
Miami - 137,413
Pittsburgh - 118,663
Los Angeles - 115,541
Detroit - 90,649
Providence - 82,015
New Haven - 76,711
Washington - 71,808
San Francisco - 65,531
Buffalo - 64,399
Cleveland - 62,217
Baltimore - 49,084
St. Louis - 39,542
Syracuse - 37,376
New Orleans - 29,767
Some sleepers are other Upstate NY areas like Utica-Rome(both of the current mayors of Utica and Rome are Italian and have been for a while), Rochester, Albany, Binghamton and others; Scranton-Wilkes Barre, Hartford and Bridgeport(metros) and very big one is the Iron Mountain MI micro area in the Upper Peninsula(Tom Izzo, Michigan State's Men's Basketball coach and Steve Mariucci, former 49ers head coach are from there). Some are substantial/high on the city proper and/or metro level.
Some sleepers are other Upstate NY areas like Utica-Rome(both of the current mayors of Utica and Rome are Italian and have been for a while) Rochester, Albany, Binghamton and others; Scranton-Wilkes Barre, Hartford and Bridgeport(metros) and very big one is the Iron Mountain MI micro area in the Upper Peninsula(Tom Izzo, Michigan State's Men's Basketball coach and Steve Mariucci, former 49ers head coach are from there). Some are substantial/high on the city proper and/or metro level.
First, it's not statistically meaningful. I've had the same sibling doing these tests multiple times and other than the 3 largest portions - which do reflect our family origins going back several generations - all the rest of the portions, much smaller, vary from report to report. It's a racket.
Second, people tend to underestimate the role of wars/disasters, migrations, rape and incest in deep ancestry (particularly the last two), and that while someone may have provided DNA to your line at some point in history, that doesn't mean that ancestor provided any cultural or epigenetic formation to the life born from that conception. (And, no, the "Black Irish" are not descended from shipwrecked crews from the 1588 Spanish Armada.)
Agree. People finding out they have 0.5% Italian ancestry will not revitalize Italian American culture in any way. My mother is half Italian (half Polish), although I have zero connection to Italian American culture. Being majority Polish American, I have gained more appreciation of and connection to the culture through the years, although I don't have the cultural experience as generations before to be able to really pass it on.
I remember going to Italian towns in Manhattan and San Francisco but they've been taken over by Chinatown. Bergen County spots taken over by Koreans. I do see the Italian spots eroding away.
Some sleepers are other Upstate NY areas like Utica-Rome(both of the current mayors of Utica and Rome are Italian and have been for a while), Rochester, Albany, Binghamton and others; Scranton-Wilkes Barre, Hartford and Bridgeport(metros) and very big one is the Iron Mountain MI micro area in the Upper Peninsula(Tom Izzo, Michigan State's Men's Basketball coach and Steve Mariucci, former 49ers head coach are from there). Some are substantial/high on the city proper and/or metro level.
Yup, Michigan, Ohio, and the Upper Midwest have pretty sizable Italian American populations, even in more rural/ less populated part of the states. As you point out, similar to what you may see in upstate NY, norther PA, and in New England.
These are some of the subtle characteristics that connect “The North” (which includes the Northeast and the Upper Midwest).
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