The Death of Italian America (transplants, home, neighborhoods)

[BajanYankee]

I meant to start this thread after news of Tony Sirico's death. It got me thinking about how places like Arthur Avenue and 9th Street in S. Philadelphia have changed so much since 2000. Hearing news about Paul Sorvino's death today then made me wonder if the few remnants of Italian-American culture in the U.S. have all but died out.

In 2020, the NYC metropolitan area had 1.4 million residents who reported Italian as their sole ancestry. Today, it has around 1 million, and at this rate the region will only have about 500-600K people who report Italian as their only ancestry by the next census.

So is this pretty much the end of Italian America?

[elchevere]

Don’t forget Ray Liotta

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

I meant to start this thread after news of Tony Sirico's death. It got me thinking about how places like Arthur Avenue and 9th Street in S. Philadelphia have changed so much since 2000. Hearing news about Paul Sorvino's death today then made me wonder if the few remnants of Italian-American culture in the U.S. have all but died out.

In 2020, the NYC metropolitan area had 1.4 million residents who reported Italian as their sole ancestry. Today, it has around 1 million, and at this rate the region will only have about 500-600K people who report Italian as their only ancestry by the next census.

So is this pretty much the end of Italian America?

[Veritas Vincit]

Well, the less "hyphen" Americas there the better probably. "Italian America" started to die when Italians entered the middle class, started to intermarry more with other groups, move out of their ethnic enclave neighborhoods and just morphed into America as a whole. Isn't that how it's supposed to work with all immigrant groups?

[ckhthankgod]

I don't think so. There are still some highly Italian enclaves around in other parts of the Northeast and country. They may not necessarily be in main cities, but places like Johnston RI, Frankfort NY or a place like Endicott NY, which has a Little Italy on its North Side(Rome NY has one along East Dominick Street) come to mind. They may not be completely Italian, but there are still many places with a strong Italian presence.

[jjbradleynyc]

Many areas with very strong italian communities still here in Brooklyn:

Carroll Gardens
East Williamsburg/Lorimer & Graham areas
Bay Ridge
Bensonhurst

But these areas are all threatened by older generations dying out, and being replaced by folks not so traditional at all.

I can't see large populations of younger generations carrying out traditions like the old generations did--in order to keep italian restaurants, clubs, churches, traditions, etc, in place.

Especially with Gen Z, who mostly really only seem to get their culture and traditions from TikTok. LOL

It is sad to see any types of traditions fade after several generations.

[CCrest182]

It's not just Italians, this is happening/has happened with most ethnic European urban enclaves (Irish, Polish, Germans, Czech, Scandanavians) particularly over the late 20th century . You can still find some spots in big cities where they still exist, but these places have definitely been watered down a lot over the past several decades. A big part of that is newer generations morphing into regular "Americans" who don't identify as much with their deeper ancestry, and also white flight to the suburbs and other cities in the US. Also gentrification of many urban areas has driven out older, more middle class folks and in turn have more upper class Yuppie transplants. Those older Euro immigrant groups have also been replaced by newer immigrant groups, mainly from Latin America and Eastern Europe.

By now, most white people in the US are "mix" of Italian, German, English etc. It's rare to find white Americans who are of one entire ancestral ethnicity like would be the case in the 1950s and earlier. Times are just way different now. There has been so much inter-marriage between different European ethnicities that it's become very diluted. It's why "race" has become so prevalent now, rather than the literal country your ancestors came from. "White" is the umbrella all Italian/Irish/Polish/German etc. are crammed under. "Hispanic" is the umbrella for Spanish/Mexicans/Puerto Ricans/Guatemalans etc.

[Heel82]

First-generation voluntary immigrants always hold onto traditions longest. The next generation begins the process, in fits and starts, of integrating into the mainstream culture. It took several several generations for the Irish to go from “Irish need not apply” signs to becoming president. At that point the Irish label was merely a quirk (the Catholic label was the challenge). Now St. Paddy’s day is a national drinking holiday. This is how it normally works.

I guess the fact is there are simply fewer first-generation Italians coming to America. If they still came in the numbers they once did, you’d find more Italian enclaves. But migrating patterns have changed.

[BigCity76]

Not to derail the thread and even though he wasn't Italian, let's not forget James "Jimmy" Caan either. Another lifelong movie/TV mob wise guy who just recently passed. That whole generation is passing. Sad.

[kyle19125]

I agree and disagree. Traditions are fading but I think it's cyclical with generations. There's a lack of appreciation for anything "old" with the latest adult generation but see signs among younger teens/children a curiosity about the past and having taken all of the new fangledness for granted/all they know. I think the red plaid tablecloth old-school Italian restaurants are going to come back more into favor as America fully comes out of pandemic mode looking for old-fashioned comfort versus the carb adverse weirdness the past decade or so, not to mention their relative affordability.

[RocketSci]

Our neighborhood just revived its Italian Festival, which outgrew the neighborhood a few years ago, but never was successfully held when tried on larger fair grounds or even downtown. People wanted a return to a real street festival in the "old neighborhood," even though the neighborhood is no longer majority Italian, most of the Italian grocers and shops are long gone, and the Catholic churches are mostly empty. However, a new Italian Cultural Center just opened on one of the main streets, the Little Italia signs are still up, and a few Italian restaurants and shops remain where I can occassionally hear Italian being spoken. The festival was very successful this year, and although much of the old culture has been lost the nostalgia remains.

I think generally the old country culture was lost decades ago when the language wasn't passed down to the children and grandchildren. The immigration of Italians here peaked by the 1920s, and immigration here ended by the 1970s. Most of the Italian kids I went to school with didn't speak Italian, and neither did many of their parents. My neighborhood wasn't even the original Italian neighborhood in the city, but became so in the 60s and 70s as immigrants and children relocated from poorer neighborhoods on the West Side, many displaced by Urban Renewal.

Yet, it is now still considered "the Italian neighborhood" by many.

Culture only represents a unique place and point in time. It is always changing, even when we try to hold onto what we believe it used to be.

And honestly, the old culture I remember from the 60s and 70s was actually pretty dangerous and seedy sometimes, but people seem to overlook that part.

I have Italian family members who live in Miami, some born in Italy (Sicily), who now have adopted Spanish as their home language. As I said, culture is unique to a place and time.