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No, what I listed IS in downtown Phoenix, in the heart as you call it, of the city. There are more in the central gayborhoods and gay districts but those are just the downtown gay bars. I know, I am gay and live downtown. There is not more continuous nightlife in DOWNTOWN Tucson or Tucson, please list those clubs; not dive bars, but CLUBS...
Centro, Zen Rock, Club Congress, Vaudeville, Sharks, IBT. All clubs, not dive bars. All within walking distance of each other. All within downtown TUCSON.
Bars along this corridor: The District, Cushing Street Bar, Sports Bar, Maynard's, The Buffet, Shanty, O'Malleys, Maloney's, The Hut, Bison Wiches, Che's, Plush, Surly Wench, Bumstead's, Pancho Villa's, Auld Dubliner, No Anchovies, Frog and Firkin, and Gentle Ben's. All of these places are within walking distance of each other. Not bad for a town of 550,000.
Ahh.... I love the Southwest. It's a great place to live, and is very scenic. My three favorites are Albuquerque, Tucson, and El Paso.
http://www.allthingspast.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/tucson20snow.jpg (broken link)
http://www.gsd.harvard.edu/professional/loeb_fellowship/newsletter/2008/04-april/albuquerque%20photo%20III.JPG (broken link)
Honestly, Phoenix is low on my list of Southwest cities, just because it doesn't have that "flavor" that the other cities do. It has more amenities, but that's just because its it's gigantic. It may have a lot of things, but it lacks that culture that the other cities have.
This delusional Phoenix superiority has got to stop. I live in and love the Phoenix area, but I have to call BS.
Since when does Phoenix have a large urban core? Every other post on the Phoenix forum is a poster bemoaning the fact that Phoenix's skyline is so small, there is little activity after the end of the workday, and new residents AND businesses are drawn to outlying areas in far greater numbers than the central city. It seems that Phoenix gets light rail and all the sudden its downtown is a large urban core.
Phoenix has always had a large urban core, since the 50's. However, the downtown area has suffered since the 60's and not until the late 90's/early 2000's has there been a huge investment in the city center (most notably since 2004). Most of Phoenix' 1.6 million residents live in a "square" that includes Metro Center, Central Phoenix, and east central Phoenix which includes the downtown, midtown, and uptown districts. The light rail corridor was built in the most densely populated region in Arizona and one of the most dense in the western region after San Francisco, Seattle, and parts of L.A. There are more residents in downtown Phoenix than in Portland, Denver, Houston, or Tucson. There are more in downtown Phoenix than in downtown Tucson and Albuquerque combined. About light rail; it isn't that "all of the sudden its downtown is a large urban core," but the sheer number using it is testament to the large population base within the core.
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For its size, Phoenix very mediocre museums that are very small. Both Albuquerque and Tucson has very impressive art museums for being medium-sized cities. Also, I don't know what "large theaters" you're referring to. Tucson has the Rialto and Fox theaters. I am sure that that Albuquerque has a fair amount of theater space, as well.
Actually, Phoenix has some of the most renowned museums in the West and Southwest and specialty museum unmatched in the nation. The Phoenix Art Museum could house both the "art" museums that reside in Albuquerque and Tucson, The Chicano Cultural Museum and Center similarly is a great and large resource in Phoenix. Let's not forget the Heard Museum, THE museum renowned for the largest collection of a "native people's culture and art in the U.S." I could go on with Frank Lloyd Wright's museums like Taliesin and Taliesin West, ASU's galleries and museums which has just won awards.
The HUGE Dodge Theater, Herberger Center for the Performing Arts, The Orpheum Theater, The Phoenix Theater, Symphony Hall, Valley Youth Theater, The Arizona Theater Company, and on and on.
Sorry but the 6,000 seat Dodge Theater alone overshadows both the 1,800 seat Rialto and 1,200 seat Fox Theater combined in Tucson...
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I would expect Phoenix to have international flights seeing as it's the 5th most populous city in the country. Comparing Albuquerque, Tucson, and El Paso to Phoenix is terms of flights is ridiculous, seeing as all three cities have less than half the population of Phoenix. While we're on the subject of transportation, there is one thing that Albuquerque, Tucson, AND El Paso have that Phoenix doesn't -- Amtrak service. You would think that a city that is as multi-faceted as you claim Phoenix is would at least have basic Amtrak service. Nope.
Despite a central location in Phoenix, it is rather a distance from other cities like L.A., Vegas, San Diego, and San Francisco; rail service was minimally used in Phoenix because of the great flow and growth of Sky Harbor. However, the nation's first high speed trains and the group studying the best corridors in the nation consider the L.A. to Phoenix high speed rail corridor one of the most feasible and heavily traveled in the nation.
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What kind of international business does Phoenix have? You make Phoenix sound like it's the comparable to the likes of Dubai, Miami, LA, New York, and London. Not really. Phoenix's economy is very heavily reliant on local residential construction.
LOL, well since we are comparing Southwestern cities, Phoenix is like the LA, NYC, and London of the southwest, but of the nation and world it is not. It has a plethora of international business, from solar to research including the International Genomics Consortium/TGen, medical research (MD Anderson moving in along with more Mayo Clinics, and Cancer Research Centers) banking, and aeronautical research.
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Woo, Phoenix has the nation's largest First Friday event. That's really no bragging point. It's a bunch of people walking around and drinking.
It is not the "nation's largest First Friday event," but the nation's largest art walk which is called First Friday and is very much a bragging cultural aspect of the city. It is a cultural art expo with local and national artists with PAM (The Phoenix Art Museum), ASU downtown, The Heard, and the Phoenix Theater as the anchor "exhibitors" of the event. It is not a bunch of people walking around drinking as drinking on the streets is illegal in Phoenix. However, after 11pm, there is a nightlife feel to the event as the galleries and museums close and the nightspots take over...
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Comparing Hispanic and Native American art in Phoenix to that in Tucson and Albuquerque is foolish. Phoenix has done everything in its power to become an "Anglicized." Tucson and Albuquerque has a lot of authentic art that is not guarded in pretentious galleries. Nevermind that Tucson has been home to a continuous Native American population for 4,000 years and has had an nomadic population for the past 12,000 years. I guess irrigation channels that the Hohokam dug hundreds of years ago negate those facts.
Phoenix grew after both Tucson and Albuquerque, but the backbone of this town is a mix of Anglo, Hispanic, and native culture. Phoenix is named Phoenix because it was built on the "foundation of an ancient native civilization" known as the Hohokam. They built canals, still used today, that only Ancient Roman aqueducts rival! Calling the canals that stretch hundred of miles, built on sophisticated grades and through trying landscapes is hardly "irrigation channels dug hundreds of years ago." They were dug THOUSANDS of years ago and the Hohokam built cities in the Salt River Valley; actual stone and mud brick structures and temples. Someone needs a trip to the Pueblo Grande Museum in East Central Phoenix to see and learn about the ancient Hohokam ruins that are still standing in the museum grounds.
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I wouldn't call Phoenix's nightlife "incredible." First of all, pretty much all of the nightlife is in Scottsdale or Tempe, not Phoenix. Secondly, these nightlife spots are usually overrun by ASU students and 30K dollar millionaires. Far from incredible.
Professional sports. Yes. Phoenix does have THAT edge over all other cities in the Southwest.
Someone needs a trip not only to the museums, but to the downtown nightspots. The rest of this is just judgmental b.s. I'm sure there are 30k millionaires everywhere...
Last edited by fcorrales80; 12-23-2009 at 03:21 PM..
[quote=miamiman;12077748]Centro, Zen Rock, Club Congress, Vaudeville, Sharks, IBT. All clubs, not dive bars. All within walking distance of each other. All within downtown TUCSON.
One block in downtown Phoenix: Bar Smith, Sky Lounge, Cotton Club, Marejle's, Stoudemire's, Silver, PHX, Top Less; another block in Warehouse district; Ice House, Bentley's, Coach and Willie's. Arts District: Lost Leaf, Harley's, Nine/05, Sens, Anti-Space, and many more I haven't been to and all the gay clubs on Central Ave...there are just downtown Phoenix, in LESS than one square mile...
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Bars along this corridor: The District, Cushing Street Bar, Sports Bar, Maynard's, The Buffet, Shanty, O'Malleys, Maloney's, The Hut, Bison Wiches, Che's, Plush, Surly Wench, Bumstead's, Pancho Villa's, Auld Dubliner, No Anchovies, Frog and Firkin, and Gentle Ben's. All of these places are within walking distance of each other. Not bad for a town of 550,000.
I couldn't even begin to name all the bars/lounges/martini rooms/cigar clubs/and whatever else exists just in central Phoenix within walking distance! The list atop sounds like a few blocks of Roosevelt in downtown Phoenix if we eliminated side streets, corner bars, and Roosevelt west of Central Ave...
One block in downtown Phoenix: Bar Smith, Sky Lounge, Cotton Club, Marejle's, Stoudemire's, Silver, PHX, Top Less; another block in Warehouse district; Ice House, Bentley's, Coach and Willie's. Arts District: Lost Leaf, Harley's, Nine/05, Sens, Anti-Space, and many more I haven't been to and all the gay clubs on Central Ave...there are just downtown Phoenix, in LESS than one square mile...
I couldn't even begin to name all the bars/lounges/martini rooms/cigar clubs/and whatever else exists just in central Phoenix within walking distance! The list atop sounds like a few blocks of Roosevelt in downtown Phoenix if we eliminated side streets, corner bars, and Roosevelt west of Central Ave...
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong...
Most of the gay bars are NOT within one square mile in downtown Phoenix. Most are not even in downtown Phoenix. In addition, there may be many bars, etc. along Central, but Central goes for miles...and AGAIN, we are not talking about Central Phoenix, we are talking about DOWNTOWN Phoenix. Get it right.
BTW, Miamiman's list (although pretty good) did not include every bar/club in downtown/4th Ave/University, but I'll be happy to get that list for you since you thought his was inadequate.
Phoenix has always had a large urban core, since the 50's. However, the downtown area has suffered since the 60's and not until the late 90's/early 2000's has there been a huge investment in the city center (most notably since 2004). Most of Phoenix' 1.6 million residents live in a "square" that includes Metro Center, Central Phoenix, and east central Phoenix which includes the downtown, midtown, and uptown districts. The light rail corridor was built in the most densely populated region in Arizona and one of the most dense in the western region after San Francisco, Seattle, and parts of L.A. There are more residents in downtown Phoenix than in Portland, Denver, Houston, or Tucson. There are more in downtown Phoenix than in downtown Tucson and Albuquerque combined. About light rail; it isn't that "all of the sudden its downtown is a large urban core," but the sheer number using it is testament to the large population base within the core.
Hmmm...you'd think that since the population of the city of Phoenix is larger than that of both Tucson & Albuquerque that it would only make sense that there are more residents in the "actual" area considered the downtown neighborhood in Phoenix than in both Tucson's & Albuquerque's "actual" downtown neighborhoods. Not necessarily. The Metro Center neighborhood, Central Phoenix, and East Central Phoenix are NOT downtown Phoenix. Granted, there are a lot of people who live there, but it still isn't downtown. We've already talked about the "actual" area considered downtown Phoenix. The "square" you speak of is not considered "downtown". Like I stated before, the "actual" downtown neighborhood of Phoenix consisting of 12.488 sq miles has a population of 47,256. Tucson's downtown is only .899 sq miles and Albuquerque's downtown is only .722 sq miles. Expand on the Tucson and Albuquerque downtowns to equal 12.488 miles and I'm sure you'll come up with more people than 47,256. You could likely do that in Tucson alone, but we've already gone through that.
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Originally Posted by fcorrales80
Phoenix grew after both Tucson and Albuquerque, but the backbone of this town is a mix of Anglo, Hispanic, and native culture. Phoenix is named Phoenix because it was built on the "foundation of an ancient native civilization" known as the Hohokam. They built canals, still used today, that only Ancient Roman aqueducts rival! Calling the canals that stretch hundred of miles, built on sophisticated grades and through trying landscapes is hardly "irrigation channels dug hundreds of years ago." They were dug THOUSANDS of years ago and the Hohokam built cities in the Salt River Valley; actual stone and mud brick structures and temples. Someone needs a trip to the Pueblo Grande Museum in East Central Phoenix to see and learn about the ancient Hohokam ruins that are still standing in the museum grounds.
From Wikipedia:
Tucson was probably first visited by Paleo-Indians, known to have been in southern Arizona by about 12,000 years ago. Recent archaeological excavations near the Santa Cruz River have located a village site dating from 4,000 years ago. The floodplain of the Santa Cruz River was extensively farmed during the Early Agricultural period, circa 1200 BC to AD 150. These people constructed irrigation canals and grew corn, beans, and other crops while gathering wild plants and hunting animals. The Early Ceramic period occupation of Tucson saw the first extensive use of pottery vessels for cooking and storage. The groups designated by archaeologists as the Hohokam lived in the area from AD 600 to 1450 and are known for their red-on-brown pottery.
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Originally Posted by fcorrales80
Someone needs a trip not only to the museums, but to the downtown nightspots. The rest of this is just judgmental b.s. I'm sure there are 30k millionaires everywhere...
See, we have been to the downtown nightspots in Phoenix , but you still haven't told us where you've been in Tucson to be able to make the claim that downtown Phoenix has a much better, centralized nightlife (not that it would make a difference).
Most of the gay bars are NOT within one square mile in downtown Phoenix. Most are not even in downtown Phoenix. In addition, there may be many bars, etc. along Central, but Central goes for miles...and AGAIN, we are not talking about Central Phoenix, we are talking about DOWNTOWN Phoenix. Get it right.
I never said "most" of the gay bars are in downtown Phoenix, but that the gay bars IN downtown Phoenix are "mostly" on Central Ave. Most of the gay bars in Phoenix are in the Melrose Gayborhood and "between the 7's" in central Phoenix north of downtown.
NOOO! we are talking about CITIES! Get it right yourself! While downtown Phoenix is ONE aspect of the central city, the entire community is an organic and large one. Even then, downtown Phoenix is larger and more populous than any other southwestern city.
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BTW, Miamiman's list (although pretty good) did not include every bar/club in downtown/4th Ave/University, but I'll be happy to get that list for you since you thought his was inadequate.
Sure, it will still be a fraction of what is available downtown; and don't try to pass off university district clubs/bars as "downtown." I know Tucson so that won't fool me...
I never said "most" of the gay bars are in downtown Phoenix, but that the gay bars IN downtown Phoenix are "mostly" on Central Ave. Most of the gay bars in Phoenix are in the Melrose Gayborhood and "between the 7's" in central Phoenix north of downtown.
NOOO! we are talking about CITIES! Get it right yourself! While downtown Phoenix is ONE aspect of the central city, the entire community is an organic and large one. Even then, downtown Phoenix is larger and more populous than any other southwestern city.
Sure, it will still be a fraction of what is available downtown; and don't try to pass off university district clubs/bars as "downtown." I know Tucson so that won't fool me...
Wrong again.
If you go back and look at the posts (specifically between you and I), you will see that we were specifically speaking about downtowns (you tried to stretch that a few times), and regarding bars/clubs within a reasonable walking distance as well (which does include University). Map it from Congress. It's not the same as walking from Amsterdam to Kobalt (which is almost twice the walking distance) which you claim to be downtown Phoenix (Kobalt).
Hmmm...you'd think that since the population of the city of Phoenix is larger than that of both Tucson & Albuquerque that it would only make sense that there are more residents in the "actual" area considered the downtown neighborhood in Phoenix than in both Tucson's & Albuquerque's "actual" downtown neighborhoods. Not necessarily. The Metro Center neighborhood, Central Phoenix, and East Central Phoenix are NOT downtown Phoenix. Granted, there are a lot of people who live there, but it still isn't downtown. We've already talked about the "actual" area considered downtown Phoenix. The "square" you speak of is not considered "downtown". Like I stated before, the "actual" downtown neighborhood of Phoenix consisting of 12.488 sq miles has a population of 47,256. Tucson's downtown is only .899 sq miles and Albuquerque's downtown is only .722 sq miles. Expand on the Tucson and Albuquerque downtowns to equal 12.488 miles and I'm sure you'll come up with more people than 47,256. You could likely do that in Tucson alone, but we've already gone through that.
Actually, downtown Phoenix is only one square mile in size; it goes from McDowell Rd. to the north, to Buchanan at the south, from 7th Ave to the west to 7th Street at the eastern end. The 12 square miles you speak of consists of north only downtown but of the industrial, warehouse, distribution center, and manufacturing base of Phoenix. It also consists of the largest railyard in the west outside of Los Angeles, so the only population in the region would be downtown or the few neighborhoods to the east of downtown. An area in Phoenix the size of ALL of Tucson, has more than a million people, actually, the area half the size of Tucson has nearly a million people, this is the Metro Center, Central PHoenix, and East Central Phoenix areas. They are very small but contain VERY dense urban populations; nothing like it in Tucson or Albuqueque...AND downtown Phoenix IS in central Phoenix, it is a "neighborhood" of the Central City...
From Wikipedia:
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Tucson was probably first visited by Paleo-Indians, known to have been in southern Arizona by about 12,000 years ago. Recent archaeological excavations near the Santa Cruz River have located a village site dating from 4,000 years ago. The floodplain of the Santa Cruz River was extensively farmed during the Early Agricultural period, circa 1200 BC to AD 150. These people constructed irrigation canals and grew corn, beans, and other crops while gathering wild plants and hunting animals. The Early Ceramic period occupation of Tucson saw the first extensive use of pottery vessels for cooking and storage. The groups designated by archaeologists as the Hohokam lived in the area from AD 600 to 1450 and are known for their red-on-brown pottery.
Key words, "Tucson WAS probably first visited by paleo-indians...12,000 years ago. "Village site dating 4,000 years ago."
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Pueblo Grande Museum Pueblo Grande Museum is located at a 1,500 year-old Hohokam village ruins in modern day Phoenix. For over 70 years the museum has been dedicated to the study and interpretation of the Hohokam culture. On the 102 acre park grounds, visitors explore the ruin of an 800 year-old platform mound possibly used by the Hohokam for ceremonies or as an administrative center. An excavated ballcourt, and to full-scale reproductions of prehistoric Hohokam homes can be viewed along the ruin trail. The site also includes some of the last remaining intact Hohokam irrigation canals. Pueblo Grande Museum and Archaeological Park
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See, we have been to the downtown nightspots in Phoenix , but you still haven't told us where you've been in Tucson to be able to make the claim that downtown Phoenix has a much better, centralized nightlife (not that it would make a difference).
I have doubts you've been to downtown Phoenix bars since you couldn't list any at the former crow-bar site that has been changed since 2005...you didn't mention the other bars that took its place and those that moved into the neighorhood. In Tuscon I went to the little gay pride event. The few gay bars there were very small and not very fun, I think there are 4 or 5 gays bars but was told there are 3 for sure and 2 may have closed. Been to Ain't Nobody's Bizness (the Biz; a sister club exists in Phoenix), and IBT's...been to Maloney's (Miamiman listed) but don't remember that being "downtown" in Tucson...it was in a "restaurant" looking one story building that looked like a Bennigan's: Maloney's Tavern
A "similar" Irish pub/bar/nightspot in downtown Phoenix is in a historic building (San Carlos Hotel, I think 15 stories), along a small downtown streets with no on site parking...that is the kind of "downtown club/bar I am talking about. One example of a downtown Phoenix club in one of the oldest historic buildings in Phoenix: Google Image Result for http://cdn.rdcimage.com/microsites/301089photo1.jpg
Last edited by fcorrales80; 12-23-2009 at 05:22 PM..
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