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In the present day. I think that in some situations, it's caused by minorities moving into an area, other times it caused by social changes, much of the time is motivated by some other fear. It's a variety of things nowadays that cause "white" or "middle" class flight. Unfortunately, much of the time they are caused by unjust fears, and the people leave the area, causing a vacuum leading to lower property values, which unless it's controlled in the right way, will usually lead to other issues. I believe that there is a tipping point between assumptions and reality, where for a while, the area isn't actually declining but some people just assume it is because a group of people they are uncomfortable with starts moving in, then a lot of them will leave, and then property values start to decrease due to people moving away, then other issues start occurring, and then it turns into reality, and the areas start becoming actually unsafe and "bad". Again, this isn't true in all scenarios. The world isn't black and white, there are different situations for different areas.
What I will say though, is that historical, white-flight was caused by residents of another race moving into an area, it just took one family and soon the entire neighborhood would be gone. This was true for most areas up until the late 1970s. out.
Another aspect was the closing of industries that supported a prosperous blue-collar population. My son goes to college in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. Aside from professors, students and some of the people working for the school, whites, along with Bethlehem Steel, are gone.
Another aspect was the closing of industries that supported a prosperous blue-collar population. My son goes to college in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. Aside from professors, students and some of the people working for the school, whites, along with Bethlehem Steel, are gone.
Lots of history there - and everywhere else - that relates to this.
In a very basic sense, this was the sequence of events.
1. Black folks were chased from the south at the end of a gun or a rope or by being disallowed from any decent trade and treated as animals.
2. They moved to the North (Chicago, Detroit, Philly and lots of others places) where there were jobs. This all took place in the period from about 1900 (when it was clear the South was not going to change) up until the 1950's.
3. When Blacks moved up north, they got jobs in steel mills, service, car factories, etc. and - relatively speaking - many prospered.
4. As jobs got more scarce - especially after the war when millions of white Americans returned and were hired - blacks fell further into poverty. Racism was in full bloom in the North - whether against Jews, Italians or Black. But when it came to "knowing someone" at the local plant or Union Hall, blacks were in last place and therefore lost their jobs first or never got them.
5. By the 1960's many of the jobs were moving south for lower cost labor - meaning even more competition for the still existing factories. By this point the black and hispanic populations in the north were largely not needed - and so came the slums and some government assistance, etc.
6. Also in the 60's the Interstate highways were heavily developed...meaning it was now easier to live further from the places of work - and so "white flight" was born among the upwardly mobile.
7. The 70's and 80's saw the closing of most heavy industries and blooming of office parks in beltways around major cities. The "knowledge worker" became the norm...and, again, black and hispanics (due to location and education) were largely left out of the picture.
Added to this are some very typical dreams - the grass is always greener elsewhere, etc.
"Make a new life" by moving.
This has caused tens of millions to move to Florida - where, instead of creating a new paradise, they created somewhat of a hell on earth due to the fact that you really can't run away from yourself (selfish desires,etc)....
Those are some of the basics. I am somewhat of a historian and have always wondered why certain population inhabited cities in far-away places like Newburgh, NY and Holyoke, MA.
A little reading told the tale. Workers....in factories and industries which left.
The white folks had the money and support to leave - the others didn't. And so, white flight.
Whites began fleeing urban areas in large numbers after the Civil Rights Act was passed, and even more so when it became clear federal government was going to enforce the various protections.
Forced integration of public schools was the first salvo over the bow. Then came the striking down of various methods used to racially segregate neighborhoods (restrictive covenants, red lining, and other violations of federal anti-discrimination laws.
It is important to remember federal statues regarding anti-discrimination in housing, education, employment and so forth are written rather broadly and make much use of the phrase "disparate impact". This rather open ended term basically means something can run afoul of various anti-discrimination laws even if that as not the intent.
The Civil Rights fight of the 1950's and 1960's gave way to race riots which emptied out many major cities of whites who fled for the perceived safety of the suburbs. Newark, New Jersey, Jersey City, New Jersey and many other areas from the Northeast right through the "Rust Belt" went from majority white to African-American (or Latino-Hispanic) in almost less than a decade.
As pointed out by others then you had the economic situation beginning in the 1970's. The post WWII boom was over and the USA had entered a period of high inflation and recessions. Worse foreign imports of everything from automobiles to electronics or appliances began to erode American manufactures edge. This while costs were going up as labor (union) were making demands for increased wages and such. Long story short is that places closed and took with them the good jobs that provided a solid middle or above class lifestyle. Whites often left these areas for better opportunities elsewhere, but for various reasons African Americans remained and or grew their populations.
Detroit, MI is a classic example of this; whites largely fled that city proper, but the surrounding suburbs were still largely of that demographic. Whites with jobs in Detroit proper continued to commute into town, but got the heck out of dodge before the sunset. *LOL*
Finally another reason for "white flight" was immigration patterns.
Large numbers of the various ethic urban enclaves around this country (Italians, Polish, German, Irish, etc...) were built and sustained based upon two main factors; high birth rates in a steady stream of immigrants from the "old country".
Kennedy's immigration "reform" laws virtually overnight shut down the European preference and shifted the USA towards Mexico, Asia, Africa and other nations. Without the arrival of new blood, the European immigrant communities were largely dependent upon birth rates to sustain. This is important because just as with any other ethnic group these European whites had people who moved up and out of the various enclaves when they could do better.
You guys put a very "racist" and evil spin on something very logical.
Wherever I have moved in the country the whitest area are always the best/most desirable to live in. We have lived in Floridia, Utah, Colorado, Tennessee, and upstate NY and this has been consistently the case.
For example in Florida you have or had some very nice places to live. The first waves of Cuban immigration were positive in most respects. The recent waves of mutligenaration Cubans and various other south/central American ethinicities had been disastrous. Essentially as families have fled the chaoatic crime infestation of Miami they have brought it along with them.
You guys put a very "racist" and evil spin on something very logical.
Wherever I have moved in the country the whitest area are always the best/most desirable to live in. We have lived in Floridia, Utah, Colorado, Tennessee, and upstate NY and this has been consistently the case.
For example in Florida you have or had some very nice places to live. The first waves of Cuban immigration were positive in most respects. The recent waves of mutligenaration Cubans and various other south/central American ethinicities had been disastrous. Essentially as families have fled the chaoatic crime infestation of Miami they have brought it along with them.
Nothing new nor unique to report in that situation.
Go and ask old timers of the Poconos, PA region how the arrival of masses of African Americans and Latino-Hispanics from New York has played out.
Yes, those groups moved out there to "escape" the crime and whatever of their old NYC neighborhoods, but in large measure have brought those same ills to their new homes.
When we were looking for our first house we wanted a large lot, an acre or more. Cities don't offer that. I think in the 50's people were looking for the similar: something that offered some privacy, a little bit of lawn and garden instead of concrete as asphalt.
Most cities have such neighborhoods. They were developed after the city's core. As they filled, people looked further out. Into the suburbs. And so it went: farther and farther out.
I don't think it had anything to do with schools because city schools (around here anyway) were better than those outside the cities. And I don't think it had anything to do with race because city neighborhoods were already segregated.
1. People naturally prefer to be with people who are simlar to them. Similar culture, values, traditions, beliefs, etc. You have to make a conscious effort to want to mix it up.
2. Crime, or the perception of higher crime.
3. Prejudice.
4. Sometimes schools in areas with a predominant culture/race will underperform. People move for better school opportunities for their children.
Both very interesting posts and I repped both. I am going to add my thoughts selectively.
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri
Lots of history there - and everywhere else - that relates to this.
In a very basic sense, this was the sequence of events.
1. Black folks were chased from the south at the end of a gun or a rope or by being disallowed from any decent trade and treated as animals.
2. They moved to the North (Chicago, Detroit, Philly and lots of others places) where there were jobs. This all took place in the period from about 1900 (when it was clear the South was not going to change) up until the 1950's.
Quite true. I think it had more to do with opportunity than "chased from the south at the end of a gun or a rope." The latter situations usually involved sexual episodes, real or imagined, i.e. lynching.
[quote=craigiri;46920017]3. When Blacks moved up north, they got jobs in steel mills, service, car factories, etc. and - relatively speaking - many prospered. [/qutoe]That's a little too sunny a picture. Females got jobs as nurses or domestic workers. It was the men's failure to get mill or factory jobs that led to the disintegration of the black family since there was no longer any economic ties that bound families together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri
4. As jobs got more scarce - especially after the war when millions of white Americans returned and were hired - blacks fell further into poverty. Racism was in full bloom in the North - whether against Jews, Italians or Black. But when it came to "knowing someone" at the local plant or Union Hall, blacks were in last place and therefore lost their jobs first or never got them.
I am Jewish and if anything anti-Judaism hit a nadir as a result of guilt spasms from the Holocaust and the U.S.'s inaction relating to it. Jews and some other groups prospered. The politically incorrect fact is that by and large the blacks that remained underclass didn't want the educational opportunities made available to them. For example Mount Vernon blacks declined an offer to have some of their students bused to Scarsdale for better schools. Far better schools.
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri
5. By the 1960's many of the jobs were moving south for lower cost labor - meaning even more competition for the still existing factories. By this point the black and hispanic populations in the north were largely not needed - and so came the slums and some government assistance, etc.
6. Also in the 60's the Interstate highways were heavily developed...meaning it was now easier to live further from the places of work - and so "white flight" was born among the upwardly mobile.
7. The 70's and 80's saw the closing of most heavy industries and blooming of office parks in beltways around major cities. The "knowledge worker" became the norm...and, again, black and hispanics (due to location and education) were largely left out of the picture.
True. But that mostly started the embitterment of the white lower to middle class. It wasn't only a color thing; many of the white lower-middle class was relatively uninterested in education. My friend who lived in Yonkers told me about drag races on Central Avenue that went well into the night, on school nights.
[quote=craigiri;46920017]This has caused tens of millions to move to Florida - where, instead of creating a new paradise, they created somewhat of a hell on earth due to the fact that you really can't run away from yourself (selfish desires,etc)....[/qutoe]The "Florida crew" were mostly aging. During their golden years their tax revenues vanished. To add insult to injury they often return to the North for better health care when they really get infirm, stressing our budget.
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri
Those are some of the basics. I am somewhat of a historian and have always wondered why certain population inhabited cities in far-away places like Newburgh, NY and Holyoke, MA.
People who rely on benefits can make those dollars go much further in those places than New York City or Boston, though the benefit levels are keyed largely to the state.
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri
A little reading told the tale. Workers....in factories and industries which left.
The white folks had the money and support to leave - the others didn't. And so, white flight.
Good post, overall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal
Whites began fleeing urban areas in large numbers after the Civil Rights Act was passed, and even more so when it became clear federal government was going to enforce the various protections.
White flight was in full force before 1964. I think it was more the building first of the parkway system in areas like New York and then the Interstate Highway system that made flight to the suburbs feasible. The availability of subsidized mortgages for WW II veterans also played a huge roll, leading to the development of such places as Levittown, and later more expensive suburbs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal
Forced integration of public schools was the first salvo over the bow. Then came the striking down of various methods used to racially segregate neighborhoods (restrictive covenants, red lining, and other violations of federal anti-discrimination laws.
A quibble here. Restrictive covenants actually fell first, and the reasoning of those decisions sped school and public facility desegregation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal
It is important to remember federal statues regarding anti-discrimination in housing, education, employment and so forth are written rather broadly and make much use of the phrase "disparate impact". This rather open ended term basically means something can run afoul of various anti-discrimination laws even if that as not the intent.
If anything those made white flight less effective since people who didn't move really far could be "integrated" anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal
The Civil Rights fight of the 1950's and 1960's gave way to race riots which emptied out many major cities of whites who fled for the perceived safety of the suburbs. Newark, New Jersey, Jersey City, New Jersey and many other areas from the Northeast right through the "Rust Belt" went from majority white to African-American (or Latino-Hispanic) in almost less than a decade.
Yes. The riots had the effect, literally, of pouring gasoline into the fire of white flight, both by scaring people and destroying the small businesses, often white-owned, that kept some whites i the inner cities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal
As pointed out by others then you had the economic situation beginning in the 1970's. The post WWII boom was over and the USA had entered a period of high inflation and recessions. Worse foreign imports of everything from automobiles to electronics or appliances began to erode American manufactures edge. This while costs were going up as labor (union) were making demands for increased wages and such. Long story short is that places closed and took with them the good jobs that provided a solid middle or above class lifestyle. Whites often left these areas for better opportunities elsewhere, but for various reasons African Americans remained and or grew their populations.
Detroit, MI is a classic example of this; whites largely fled that city proper, but the surrounding suburbs were still largely of that demographic. Whites with jobs in Detroit proper continued to commute into town, but got the heck out of dodge before the sunset. *LOL*
The unions' actions in that regard were a classic example of self-defeating stupidity but that's for another post or thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal
Finally another reason for "white flight" was immigration patterns.
Large numbers of the various ethic urban enclaves around this country (Italians, Polish, German, Irish, etc...) were built and sustained based upon two main factors; high birth rates in a steady stream of immigrants from the "old country".
Kennedy's immigration "reform" laws virtually overnight shut down the European preference and shifted the USA towards Mexico, Asia, Africa and other nations. Without the arrival of new blood, the European immigrant communities were largely dependent upon birth rates to sustain. This is important because just as with any other ethnic group these European whites had people who moved up and out of the various enclaves when they could do better.
Quite true. Also the descendants of the European immigrants had English as a first language and thus lost a lot of the reason for their remaining separate.
You guys put a very "racist" and evil spin on something very logical.
Wherever I have moved in the country the whitest area are always the best/most desirable to live in. We have lived in Floridia, Utah, Colorado, Tennessee, and upstate NY and this has been consistently the case.
.
"the best/most desirable FOR YOU to live in". That's an important distinction.
I lived in TN and other areas as you describe and found some of them backwards and stifling. Meth and Opiates and joblessness/hopelessness have taken over entire "white" counties many states.
I think the thread is attempting to look at things more historically than "I like my brethren to look like me".
It should be mentioned that many world-class cities like Philly, NYC, Boston and others are booming NOW and largely due to the combination of white flight BACK to them as well as the diversity you so dislike. The Economic Engines of the USA are arguably Silicon Valley, NYC and Boston...all having a much more diverse population than, for example, upper New York State.
We really disliked upstate NY....in my wife's words "all you can get to eat here is a steak or pancakes".
I must relate a small tale - I knew a guy from a "sporting" forum who was sort of an eccentric...the kind of guy who sailed around the world and was, in a sense, a pirate. He loved his guns and his freedoms...etc.
But one thing didn't fit. He lived in San Diego, CA - and, of course, constantly complained about his state and locale.
And so, he decided to take matters into his own hands. He packed up with the wifey and moved to bum-folk Florida (I know it well since my sister lives there).....next thing you know he's bragging on the forum about how he found freedom because he can "shoot my guns off my porch for target practice" and stuff like that.
Well, long story short....soon after he finds that nice creek behind his land has been declared part of a Superfund site because of the paper plant 10 miles away dumping dioxin into it..and, of course, Florida being Florida was not going to do anything about it.
But that wasn't enough....during the spring it rained for 25+ days straight - a deluge!
Next time I checked back into the forum he was back in San Diego.
Funny Stuff. In the end you can't run away from yourself.
White flight was/is very prevalent in Silicon Valley especially areas like Cupertino. When I moved to that area in the 80's it was predominately white. Now the area is predominately asian. Many attributed white flight to very competitive academics in the public schools along with soaring real estate prices.
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