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I'm reading these posts and I find if pitiful as one after the other is apologizing for hard-working, honest people moving away from gang-infested neighborhoods, as if we would owe them support and compassion. In my youth I was able to survive by washing cars and dishes, busing tables, until a better job opportunity came by. I never had the notion that well-to-do people should help me in any way other than paying me the minimum wage if there was work I could do. Attitude is everything. Being poor is no excuse to become a rat, be it white, black, brown or any other "color".
This is by far the most informative and civilized discussion that had crossed my path on this forum. Kudos to you all.
I was always wondering about those extreeme differences in certain neighborhoods. I do get that the birds of a feather to flock together, but that could translate into way too many different feathers other than race like proximity to ones place of worship, jobs, conveniences etc.
When we first came to this country, we have lived in a predominantly Hispanic neighborhood, just happen to land there, and didn't mind it at firs. The very first impression was how happy everyone seemed, friendly, with music blaring from everywhere complimented by some delicious cooking smells. But when the music was blaring at all times at night when one wanted to rest and had to get up early in the morning, it became sort of annoying. Since I went to college full time and worked a second shift, I became quite uneasy about being approached to buy drugs at the bus stop, so I got a car to avoid the late night bus. After the second stabbing on the street corner we fled. The blood was visible for days after.
Moved to a place close to jobs where we could afford a house. Not knowing the neighborhoods just went where we could afford to live and still be within a reasonable commute to school and jobs. It turned out to be predominantly white down the road. When we were placing an offer on one house the owners said that since we lived in that certain neighborhood that they don't want to sell to us. They just assumed we are Hispanics I guess. So we moved on to the next place and my parents still live there happy with the nice neighbors and the peace and quiet.
Once I got married, after a year of renting and trying to buy something that we can afford and don't have to tear down to live in, my hubby and I ended up in a burban neighborhood that met our needs. Turned out to be very white after a while. The Police logs were hilarious. Turtle crossing the road was a main event on some days. Also one of those burbs that "imports" inner city kids to have a diversity. That was very strange to me. Few Asian families but not much else. More Asians and Indian people moved in, and the neighbors who ignored me as an immigrant, started to take interest in me now, and my children got playdates galore. One of them confided to me that she would rather have black neighbors than Asians and complained how they all talk their language and ignore them at the playground. My next door neighbors were recent Hon Kong transplants who said that I was the only friendly person to them. Boy could they produce those ethnic dishes. They spoiled me rotten. I miss them.
After 8 years in the burban isolation, mosquitoes and terrible commute to the workplace, we took off again and moved closer to the city. Again not looking for the "best" schools or certain demographic but much wiser and older now,looking to be close to our church, work, ocean, ethnic stores and other minor things that made us happy like a side walk. Now in much more diverse yet still predominantly white neighborhood with plenty of euro transplants and less mosquitoes. Much happier though. Being able to talk to people from different countries and experience their culture and some mean curry dishes is a heaven for me.
But there is always that nagging question that does not go away as to why, in a certain area of Boston, there is so much violence? Why do people choose to shoot at each other? The community is certainly upset about it especially if a child gets shot at the playground. It is upsetting to me as person. Its not a war zone yet it seems as if the guns yield power. How can it be that extreme on the other side of the city? Many have enlightened me on this forum about the historical perspective to this concentration of certain races in certain neighborhoods, but the disbelief still remains. How can this end? What needs to be done to prevent another child from being shot? or another person to leave their life and start over in a "better" neighborhood. Jobs, sure. Education yes. But being underprivileged certainly does not grant amnesty to take someones life, child, sibling, relative or a friend. But what else does it take to change one's mentality? and make someone respect the fellow human and decide not to pull out the gun? And this didn't just happen, this seems to be going on for years, so it makes you wonder is the government really doing all they can or are those inhabitants merely chess pieces for campaign promises? It just makes no sense that it is happening still in 2013 in the US. And yes I have to admit it is a black neighborhood.
It's really very simple, people should be able to live where they feel comfortable and safe, and make no apologies for not wanting to live near other people who do not share those same values. I have two stories that relate to why white people move out of areas when other groups start moving in:
In the 50's my Sister lived in West Philadelphia. The neighborhood was row homes that everyone kept very nice looking. You could walk to the store after dark with no fear and every so often all the neighbors would get together and have pot luck get togethers. It was a great neighborhood, then the blacks started to move in. Crime and violence became so common that you can not even drive through that same neighborhood today with your windows down...........or drive through it at all.
Next story: My Sons are in property management and at one point in their careers they managed "Tax Credit" properties that are essentially low income housing. The complex was not that old and was really nice. My Sons got an apartment as part of their perk package and lived on premises, and I lived with them for a few years. Within a short time the residents were destroying the place, tearing up their apartments and dumping garbage all over the place. They hung out on stairs, sat in cars until the wee hours of the morning, and blasted loud music at full volume late at night.
Shootings were very common there and the police would not even come in at night without backup. Pizza delivery people didn't come there, and one Chinese delivery man was killed for a few bucks. We left there several years ago and will never go back. The residents there are horrible people who only think of themselves.........they can't pay their rent (some of it as low as $25 a month because the Government pays the rest) but all of them have fancy rims and nicer cars than we owned. We had automatic gates on the driveways to limit access but they kept ramming into them with their cars and we would find the gates laying on the ground.
So to all the bleeding heart liberals who look down on us whites who do not choose to live with people like that, I suggest you move into a neighborhood like that for a year and then we will see if you have changed your mind. Where I live now I don't have to worry about someone kicking in my door to steal my possessions or about being shot while walking to my car...........something I always did worry about when I lived in the other place.
I think section 8 housing is a major reason a good area goes down fast. The area I grew up was very beautiful, great schools, well kept lawns, homes, safe,. But then section 8 housing hit in the mid 1980's. Wham, within 5 years robbery, break-ins, car theft, schools starting having major discipline problems. Now, that area is a total disaster.
I read recently the government, HUD, is going to push very hard to make every area in our country much more diverse. Which means, here comes section 8 to any area that does not have the government quota for diversity.
First, people want their families to live where it is safe and the schools are good. And if they are homeowners, they want their houses to not decrease in value. So when poorer people start moving to their area, they leave before their home investments tanks and before they become victims of crime. It's sort of like the stock market, there is a massive sell off when a stock starts to lose its value in a serious way.
Otherwise, people want to be surrounded by others of like culture and values. Especially if they have children, because it's much more difficult to raise a child the way you want when they go to school with children of other backgrounds.
I think section 8 housing is a major reason a good area goes down fast. The area I grew up was very beautiful, great schools, well kept lawns, homes, safe,. But then section 8 housing hit in the mid 1980's. Wham, within 5 years robbery, break-ins, car theft, schools starting having major discipline problems. Now, that area is a total disaster.
I read recently the government, HUD, is going to push very hard to make every area in our country much more diverse. Which means, here comes section 8 to any area that does not have the government quota for diversity.
Back in 1973 my parents moved us to a small 3 bedroom, one bath home on a small lot with a chain linked fenced in back yard. It was in a residential subdivision. All the homes had the same basic floor plan, but different exterior. All homes had single car covered parking, paved driveway, low speed road, sidewalks, and a place for kids to play baseball or softball. It was walking distance from the middle school and a bicycle ride to a drive-in burger joint, restaurant, 2 different churches (one Baptist and one Catholic), and other places of business. These homes were small, even by standards back then. Most people living there were low to low/middle income. Majority were white. All yards and homes were well maintained. Kids use to play a made up game of baseball (using a tennis ball and a stick) or kick ball in the street while parents sat in lawn chairs outside watching their kids to ensure they all behaved. The back side of the subdivision was a cow pasture. Someone bought that cow pasture and developed it with similar size homes and were marketed for HUD or government assisted homes. Soon as those homes became occupied, crime in that subdivision more than doubled. My sister's friend's family bicycles were stolen. The kids who stole their bicycles had the nerve to go back to their home the next day and ride the bicycles in circles right in front of the home. These were large black boys (large compared to the three kids whose bicycles they stole). Those boys were lucky the dad, a hard core hunter with many guns, wasn't home at the time. Local police even found a place in a nearby field where the boys had been taking stolen bicycles to be repainted and then sold. If they were doing this as boys, what were they going to be doing when they became men? As soon as we could, my parents bought a home far away from that neighborhood. Gradually, all of the families who were there when we moved there began moving out. They were replaced with criminal elements. What was once a nice looking neighborhood has turned into something you don't want to risk moving into unless you want to buy drugs or be close to in home prostitutes. The way the neighborhood was originally is what poor neighborhoods could be if people weren't criminals and cared about their home and property. Those original owners had to "WORK" to pay for the homes without government paying it for them. When the government paid the majority of the cost of the home, people didn't care about neither the home nor the property. I recently drove through to look at the old neighborhood. It was depressing. Our home once had beautiful arrow head shaped evergreen shrubs that bookended a set of azalea bushes that bloomed lovely flowers. All were ripped up and thrown away leaving a bare front wall. Someone did a horrible job of enlarging the home into the back yard, looks like a bad DIY job. Where neighbors once sat outside on lawn chairs to watch the kids play or enjoy a spring breeze, the neighbors now sit on a porch wearing matching plain white tank tops, baggy jeans, and matching color shoe laces while drinking large can/bottle of beer in a brown paper bag, smoking questionable things, and staring at passing people with evil looks. Groups of teens or 20 something guys, also wearing matching clothing, patrolling the neighborhood looking into homes' windows and yards looking for things to steal. Regularly you'll see cars passing slowly through the neighborhood and stop as people come out to the car to buy or sell drugs or stolen items. Some have called this an example of "white flight" racism of white people leaving because black people moved into the neighborhood. They didn't leave because of their racism. They left to escape crime.
It's really very simple, people should be able to live where they feel comfortable and safe, and make no apologies for not wanting to live near other people who do not share those same values. I have two stories that relate to why white people move out of areas when other groups start moving in:
In the 50's my Sister lived in West Philadelphia. The neighborhood was row homes that everyone kept very nice looking. You could walk to the store after dark with no fear and every so often all the neighbors would get together and have pot luck get togethers. It was a great neighborhood, then the blacks started to move in. Crime and violence became so common that you can not even drive through that same neighborhood today with your windows down...........or drive through it at all.
Next story: My Sons are in property management and at one point in their careers they managed "Tax Credit" properties that are essentially low income housing. The complex was not that old and was really nice. My Sons got an apartment as part of their perk package and lived on premises, and I lived with them for a few years. Within a short time the residents were destroying the place, tearing up their apartments and dumping garbage all over the place. They hung out on stairs, sat in cars until the wee hours of the morning, and blasted loud music at full volume late at night.
Shootings were very common there and the police would not even come in at night without backup. Pizza delivery people didn't come there, and one Chinese delivery man was killed for a few bucks. We left there several years ago and will never go back. The residents there are horrible people who only think of themselves.........they can't pay their rent (some of it as low as $25 a month because the Government pays the rest) but all of them have fancy rims and nicer cars than we owned. We had automatic gates on the driveways to limit access but they kept ramming into them with their cars and we would find the gates laying on the ground.
So to all the bleeding heart liberals who look down on us whites who do not choose to live with people like that, I suggest you move into a neighborhood like that for a year and then we will see if you have changed your mind. Where I live now I don't have to worry about someone kicking in my door to steal my possessions or about being shot while walking to my car...........something I always did worry about when I lived in the other place.
Don
It's the statement I bolded in your post that I think gets to the root of this: People who act like this are selfish and think only of themselves. So that being said, it doesn't matter if they're black, white, or green, its the behavior like this that causes people to move out. It's really unfortunate though that so many people in the 1950s-1970s generation experienced that black people act like this, and now for the rest of their lives they are going to pre-judge every black person and the African-American race because of this. I know that's how some of my family members see the world. On the other hand, by the time I was growing up in the 1980s, my city already offered integrated magnet schools and my first experiences with people of other races was great - my kindergarten teacher was an African-American woman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by totsuka
I think section 8 housing is a major reason a good area goes down fast. The area I grew up was very beautiful, great schools, well kept lawns, homes, safe,. But then section 8 housing hit in the mid 1980's. Wham, within 5 years robbery, break-ins, car theft, schools starting having major discipline problems. Now, that area is a total disaster.
I read recently the government, HUD, is going to push very hard to make every area in our country much more diverse. Which means, here comes section 8 to any area that does not have the government quota for diversity.
There's another thread going where this is the topic. The cabinet Secretary who spoke about HUD's intentions stated they are being more aggressive about prosecuting realtors and leasing agents who systematically deny non-white people the options of seeing homes in white neighborhoods. There is no quota, there is no aggressive push to make any area more diverse. There is only a push to stamp out discrimination at the hands of realtors and leasing agents. Certain news agencies and editorialists are propagandizing this and making things up to inflame racial tensions, probably to appeal to their ultra-conservative readership base. I'm incredulous that people believe this malarkey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by miu
First, people want their families to live where it is safe and the schools are good. And if they are homeowners, they want their houses to not decrease in value. So when poorer people start moving to their area, they leave before their home investments tanks and before they become victims of crime. It's sort of like the stock market, there is a massive sell off when a stock starts to lose its value in a serious way.
Because the harder option and the high road would be: (1) Welcome new people with open arms and include them in your neighborhood, church, or family events, like you would any white or well-off neighbor. (2) Make sure your community's school district is capable of bringing any new student up to grade level through remediation or after-school support. (3) Make sure your community's schools, police, churches, and other institutions are multiculturally literate and are capable of treating any new resident with respect and can communicate effectively with these residents. (4) Develop your community's safety net and social service agencies so that poorer families have places to turn for food, counseling, health care, utility assistance, job training and placement, or any other needed services. (5) Ensure that your community offers public transportation so lower-income people can get to work and school. (6) Ensure that your elected leaders represent your interests as well as the interests and needs of the new constituents. (7) Decry and take action against "slumlords", block-busters, and anyone else who would take advantage of the situation.
I think section 8 housing is a major reason a good area goes down fast. The area I grew up was very beautiful, great schools, well kept lawns, homes, safe,. But then section 8 housing hit in the mid 1980's. Wham, within 5 years robbery, break-ins, car theft, schools starting having major discipline problems. Now, that area is a total disaster.
I read recently the government, HUD, is going to push very hard to make every area in our country much more diverse. Which means, here comes section 8 to any area that does not have the government quota for diversity.
The apartment I lived in took Section 8. Three quarters of the residents were on it. It is/was a 55 plus residence. It didn't ruin the area. They did their best to hide the problems, like termites, from the housing inspectors, so the problems were from management. Then they sold it and afterwards the rent went up, and someone reported the leaks, mold and termites to Housing.
Those there were allowed to stay but they could not rent to anyone else through HUD until the problems were fixed. But massive numbers moved. I was already planning to, but when a building had two tenants and was full of people at night, and the tweekers were no longer sitting outside the fence its time to go. The company who bought it *should* have looked further into condition but didn't cause the problem other than the rent raise. But they have to do the fixing. The other company who didn't bother but knew was the one who started the problem and is responsible for it. When I moved out, there were only a third of the apartments officially occupied. And a few months later they lost Hud approval.
I don't know if they got it back, but the standard is actually higher and if inspections are done properly the buildings are in good condition. And people who don't have the income have a right to live in a safe area. Now, when they destroy places or bring bad old habits with them its not the fault of Housing or the program, but individuals who do not know how to respect others. Individuals DO have responsibility for their own actions, especially when there are rules in place requiring them to respect the building and other residents. So blame them as individuals. The neighborhood I lived in earlier was 'flipped' for cheaper rentals, no housing authority involved at all, and they didn't care about how the tenants behaved. They may not always be enforced but there are rules about client's behavior and funding can be lost that way. Just enforce existing rules.
If people with money don't want to have 'poor' people around that's too bad. I can understand not wanting bad behavior, but clean up the enforcement and take care of that. Economic status should not be the standard for if you get to live somewhere safe.
I like the idea that for every half million dollar house build smaller less expensive houses of equal combined value must be built too, and not isolated either. Isolation of those who have money leads to those who do thinking everyone *can* do the same as them. Family member was bothered by a car which came into their upper middle neighborhood. It looked 'junky' according to her. She finally met the people and realized they had other needs other than a new car and was ashamed of herself. But what if its so deeply programmed in that people don't get past that?
We're stratifying by economic class according to how huge a house you can afford and how many toys you can park in front of it and those who take this in too fully need to see that these things do not give you value but if that is what you see it isn't much of a compliment.
Where I live now there are a lot of poor people and those who live well enough but people aren't into showing off and I like it a whole lot more.
Last edited by nightbird47; 08-16-2013 at 03:51 PM..
It would be nice if white women would 'white flight' themselves out of the public school system. Then maybe Black men and women educators could get employment. White women like to hire white women. They are just like White men.
1. It's not just the public school system.
2. It's not just black women and men who would like a chance for some of those jobs.
3. They have more leverage than white men in a lot of cases. Affirmative action gives them the female protected class status then white privilege kicks in. It's been proven that white women benefit the most from affirmative action.
This is off topic but I just wanted to comment. I think affirmative action policies need to be revisited but that's another thread.
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The NAACP was STARTED by white people.
