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Let's assume a zero illegal population here in the US for a moment, what would America look like in such a scenario? Would there be a miraculously huge employment offering to the extent that our economic troubles of today would disappear? Probably not, in fact most of the work done by these unfortunate souls from down south would likely be nonexistent due to the differential in compensation between American labor standards and the current wage construct of the illegal worker making it "unaffordable" by those who say they hire these people to create such affordability.
The one thing that most of us don't see is the fact of an emerging secondary labor market free from all the laws that have governed the usual labor management relations, this scenario is exactly what is being touted by so many on the right as a kind of utopia for both worker and employer. Anti union, anti regulation, these people are usually found touting the "immutable laws" of supply and demand relative to labor's value and therefore should be supporting this new low wage scenario and further, hoping for "open borders" to accommodate this "natural way" of viewing economics and labor's role in it.
We can't have it both ways, when we accept low wages for our own countrymen how can we expect to create a better society by replacing one set of low wage (foreign illegal) workers for one set of US born low wage workers. For those who tell me that Walmart is simply carrying out a "natural" form of pure capitalism and marketing I say the illegal Mexican worker is doing the same, he will work for whatever "the market" allows and his boss will reap the reward. Is our "immigration problem" really just a view of what this nation would look like if the anti union anti government crowd was to have it's way??
I have no clue. None whatsoever. However, how about we let it come to that and see what occurs? Not "lets look at a scenario." I believe illegal and I again say, ILLEGAL's in this country cost MORE then hey provide. Nuke them and lets decide where to go from there.
IF, and I won't be, I am wrong hold me accountable. I am more then willing to be held so.
I have no clue. None whatsoever. However, how about we let it come to that and see what occurs? Not "lets look at a scenario." I believe illegal and I again say, ILLEGAL's in this country cost MORE then hey provide. Nuke them and lets decide where to go from there.
IF, and I won't be, I am wrong hold me accountable. I am more then willing to be held so.
Well, for starters it won't "come to that", and that's the reason we probably should be looking at this in a way that really allows us to see the difference between hyperbole and a real threat we face that includes immigration as a problem brought about by a much much bigger problem. We, as a people of a democratic nation, have failed to act in a way that provides the constitutional mandated will of the people to be the driver of our destiny. Instead we see corporations at the helm and that's your first clue that NOTHING will happen here without their interests being served, while dismissing ours.
The entire dynamic of immigration has been dominated by corporate interest, they determine domestic government policy, they determine foreign policy, monetary policy, trade policy, education policy, labor policy, and thus immigration policy. If the interests of those who utilize illegal immigrant labor weren't being served the borders wouldn't be what they are today. You see illegals as a cost, corporate America sees a new workforce, a hungry workforce, a non union workforce, and better than ALL of that, a workforce whose very presence here can be controlled by law, and corporations are controlling those laws.
Meanwhile, the "game" in Washington DC is being played out in typical political street theatre fashion with the two corporate supported parties ostensibly "battling it out" over the how and why of immigration, but I think we both know the outcome, will, by necessity, be one that serves the interests of the moneyed class. Your assertion that "nuking" will somehow provide the resolution you so badly want flies in the face of corporate America's desire to usher in this new work force at whatever cost because you and not them will pay that cost.
By the way, these same powerful people started the entire economic crash in Mexico years ago with the IMF's SAP's (structural adjustment policies) that caused poor Mexican's to flee the resulting poverty. You will never have the country you want by supporting the corporate political parties that serve their masters on Wall street, take a look at "The Market" right now, does it look like the "immigration problem" is pulling down on the wealth of those on top? No, it isn't, so sometimes we see the need to educate ourselves may be the answer, unless of course, you are really insistent about that nuking thing.......
I have no clue. None whatsoever. However, how about we let it come to that and see what occurs? Not "lets look at a scenario." I believe illegal and I again say, ILLEGAL's in this country cost MORE then hey provide. Nuke them and lets decide where to go from there.
IF, and I won't be, I am wrong hold me accountable. I am more then willing to be held so.
If you explore the rich literature on the subject you will not find a rewarding answer. There are estimates from huge costs to huge benefits. Some economists project legalization as an act that will likely trigger a burst of growth that will significantly improve the economy. Others suggest a disaster involving trillions of expenses not offset by taxes paid. Note though these purported expenses occur many years out
On balance we have to decide the issue without any consensus from the economists.
The role of the corporation is rather small in the illegal issue. Mostly they try to protect themselves from having to vet their employees in any substantial way. And when pressured they pretty much all fold and remove the illegals from their payroll.
Any interest the cor portions have in limiting salaries is much better served by NAFTA and globalization. The illegals do not particularly drive salaries down. Here the general pay of an illegal day laborer exceeds that of McDonald's or Walmart.
If it were up to me, the first thing I would do is fund contractors to complete the wall between Mexico and the United States. Because you can't manage what you can't control. And immigration shoudl defintely be well and tightly controlled by the United States.
The second thing I would do is use the National Guard as a huge buffer for the border agents we currently have, because the number of border agents we have now simply cannot keep up with the new influx of illegal immigrants. They need help now.
Once the wall is complete, I would wind down using the National Guard and fund the required number of border agents that would be needed to properly control what is effectively now an open border.
We're gonna have to put our military down there. Bottom line, US is being invaded by a foreign nations. Even if they aren't yet bombing us. They will if they are ever returned and kept out.
Deportment first, last and always. If repeat offenders are so eager to come to this country, they can spend it in a prison making big rocks into little rocks for five years and THEN get deported.
I don't care where they come from: Mexico, Hondura, China, India, or Norway. Several good reasons:
1) If you haven't been paying attention, the working class of this country has been under extreme stress for two decades due to a) a lack of jobs and b) downward wage pressure. Of course Bill Gates and Warren Buffett like illegal immigrants. They provide cheap workers.
2) Ask anyone in government from social services to education to public health. Illegal immigrants are a strain on the system, a system that's already hard-pressed to take care of legal American residents.
3) When you simply grant amnesty to someone who strolls over the border, you're essentially telling anyone who tried to follow the law that they are chumps.
4) It is our sovereign right to regulate who comes across the border and in what numbers. I cannot believe that people outside our country have the monumental gall to question this.
If you explore the rich literature on the subject you will not find a rewarding answer. There are estimates from huge costs to huge benefits. Some economists project legalization as an act that will likely trigger a burst of growth that will significantly improve the economy. Others suggest a disaster involving trillions of expenses not offset by taxes paid. Note though these purported expenses occur many years out
On balance we have to decide the issue without any consensus from the economists.
The role of the corporation is rather small in the illegal issue. Mostly they try to protect themselves from having to vet their employees in any substantial way. And when pressured they pretty much all fold and remove the illegals from their payroll.
Any interest the cor portions have in limiting salaries is much better served by NAFTA and globalization. The illegals do not particularly drive salaries down. Here the general pay of an illegal day laborer exceeds that of McDonald's or Walmart.
There is considerable research that says you're wrong. Here is one white paper on the subject:
And really, if we're talking economics, then we have to revert to the Law of Supply and Demand. The more laborers there are to fill jobs, the lower labor costs become. That's why, in the middle part of the last decade, areas with ultra-low employment were paying counter help at convenience stores $25K plus benefits, and workers at McDonalds were earning $12 an hour.
So when you flood the market with unskilled workers, you create a much more competitive situation. Yet while a group of workers from Central America can put a dozen people into an apartment and send home their earnings, the average American worker simply cannot do that. There is a floor to their earnings under which they cannot practically go.
In fact, it's interesting that you use the construction site example. Those jobs on construction sites used to be excellent entry-level jobs for workers in this country. But now they are being undercut by people who came here illegally and are willing (And able) to work for a good deal less.
And really, if we're talking economics, then we have to revert to the Law of Supply and Demand. The more laborers there are to fill jobs, the lower labor costs become. That's why, in the middle part of the last decade, areas with ultra-low employment were paying counter help at convenience stores $25K plus benefits, and workers at McDonalds were earning $12 an hour.
So when you flood the market with unskilled workers, you create a much more competitive situation. Yet while a group of workers from Central America can put a dozen people into an apartment and send home their earnings, the average American worker simply cannot do that. There is a floor to their earnings under which they cannot practically go.
In fact, it's interesting that you use the construction site example. Those jobs on construction sites used to be excellent entry-level jobs for workers in this country. But now they are being undercut by people who came here illegally and are willing (And able) to work for a good deal less.
FAIR is a notoriously biased source. CIS generally keeps the data honest. FAIR does not.
Day laborers are not construction workers. They are general do anything workers who hang out at various hiring points. They would love some construction work but seldom get it ..Construction workers here are generally all Hispanic but only a minority illegal. And they are well paid. The great battle here was actually between the trades and the non union operators who used the Hispanic to break the union hold.
The economic argument is more about expanding the population base and the resulting economic growth.
I am personally of the opinion that we could do a much better job on the immigration side but first have to gain control which means dispositioning of the 11 million or so already here. There is no real will to actually deport them at this point. So it is regularize their status or live with the status quo. I believe the issue may be so divisive that we may attempt to live with it which will likely erupt into a new wave of illegals in the future.
The only good news is that there is only another 8 or 10 million Mexicans in the target demographic.
Honestly, I don't think anything is going to help prevent illegal immigration until the violence which is driving families from their home countries is addressed. Simply deporting or putting up more barriers is expensive, inefficient, strains resources and is potentially dangerous. While I'm generally opposed to the US interfering with other countries, I think there is room to argue that more could be accomplished by working with other American nations to find a way to improve the situation since it is increasingly becoming an widespread issue across the Western Hemisphere. Trying to fix a problem spanning multiple countries by focusing only on US policies is unlikely to resolve anything even if it potentially reduces the flow of migrants.
Yes, refugees are a symptom of a larger social problem that needs to be addressed. To ignore it is to bury one's head in the sand.
i would do everything i could, build the fence, build a wall, stock alligators in the rio grande. take all that foreign aid money that not doing anything, build more fence, hell one of obama vacation pay for ten miles of fence. bring the korea, us army people home and put them on the rio grande, i be demanning a mile a day of fence. I have helicopter, drones, army with real bullets. mexico fire on border patrol again,
Last edited by Oldhag1; 07-23-2014 at 07:40 PM..
Reason: Language
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