Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
A significant number of innovative companies are founded by immigrants. They are also creating jobs for other people.
We want to be consistent with our history. Each time americans feared immigrants , the Irish, the Italians, the whatever, but each time these immigrants made incredible contributions and wrote Americas history. Many of my liberal friends believe in this and this is the main reason they support immigration be it legal or undocumented, in the grand scheme of things. "No human being is illegal."
I've said the same in regard to borders, opportunity in general, and the problems associated with human equality issues. But, most of America at this point understands the difference between "then" and "now'. Now being a time when those born here are being pushed aside in favor of those who by virtue of their circumstances can and will work for much less.
Your original position on this matter was that "white liberals" were being more than a little hypocritical by saying one thing in public and having a different private opinion. The intent of such statements make an entire grouping of people seem less than genuine in their political take and worse, make them appear as actual supporters of a view usually ascribed to those on the right side of the political spectrum. In other words, "white liberals" are either liars or confused to the point of being a bit idiotic.
If it is the lack of consistent history that is at the center of your lament consider this: America was certainly founded by and improved upon by foreigners, but immigration subsided at one point and especially the Euro-immigrant population. US military venturing and the rise of education in foreign nations caused a new wave of immigrant to look here for opportunity that was unavailable in their homeland, India, Asia, and those from south of our border with Mexico came in huge numbers, all the while American industry was shipping thousands of jobs overseas to those who will work for much less because they can't be organized in a country ran by despotic rulers. The historical consistency here is one of a brutal labor struggle.
"Fear immigrants"? I don't know one person who fears anything about immigrants themselves, but they do fear the combine of government and multinational corporations who relish the idea of an unorganized and hungry workforce. This question is at the heart of the immigrant debate, who reaps the rewards of immigrants in the US today? American's may seem a bit distracted by all of our entertainment crap but on average even the dumbest of our countrymen know something is wrong when we see Nike hiring a ton of Asians when American's with the same job skills are being passed over. That is just one local example of the type of BS that is propagated by the likes of Bill Gate$ and others who want these people here for reason$ of their own.
The general level of wages in the US were a result of virtual warfare between the American organized union workers and the companies that sought to destroy the unions, all of our labor laws that are a positive for labor are the result of union organized workers being politicized and voting for those laws. Don't think for a minute that the war is over, in fact most of those who want better lives through collective bargaining are being inundated daily with propaganda pointing out the "benefits" of living in a right to work state. Union dues are couched as a "burden" on the worker, and union leadership is being characterized as the most vile of criminals.
Preventing the mass immigration of people from those nations that deny their own citizens the right to organize is simply being protective of the progress we've already made. We as citizens have tons more to do in order to establish a better America, bringing in more foreigners isn't in OUR best interest right now. When we see a significant rise in employment and education in America we'll be able to reach out to those in foreign nations once more, but not now. In a democratic nation the collective citizen is supposed to rule, I'd be willing to bet that the average citizen is, for the time being, against anymore immigration until things improve for our own.
I've said the same in regard to borders, opportunity in general, and the problems associated with human equality issues. But, most of America at this point understands the difference between "then" and "now'. Now being a time when those born here are being pushed aside in favor of those who by virtue of their circumstances can and will work for much less.
Your original position on this matter was that "white liberals" were being more than a little hypocritical by saying one thing in public and having a different private opinion. The intent of such statements make an entire grouping of people seem less than genuine in their political take and worse, make them appear as actual supporters of a view usually ascribed to those on the right side of the political spectrum. In other words, "white liberals" are either liars or confused to the point of being a bit idiotic.
If it is the lack of consistent history that is at the center of your lament consider this: America was certainly founded by and improved upon by foreigners, but immigration subsided at one point and especially the Euro-immigrant population. US military venturing and the rise of education in foreign nations caused a new wave of immigrant to look here for opportunity that was unavailable in their homeland, India, Asia, and those from south of our border with Mexico came in huge numbers, all the while American industry was shipping thousands of jobs overseas to those who will work for much less because they can't be organized in a country ran by despotic rulers. The historical consistency here is one of a brutal labor struggle.
"Fear immigrants"? I don't know one person who fears anything about immigrants themselves, but they do fear the combine of government and multinational corporations who relish the idea of an unorganized and hungry workforce. This question is at the heart of the immigrant debate, who reaps the rewards of immigrants in the US today? American's may seem a bit distracted by all of our entertainment crap but on average even the dumbest of our countrymen know something is wrong when we see Nike hiring a ton of Asians when American's with the same job skills are being passed over. That is just one local example of the type of BS that is propagated by the likes of Bill Gate$ and others who want these people here for reason$ of their own.
The general level of wages in the US were a result of virtual warfare between the American organized union workers and the companies that sought to destroy the unions, all of our labor laws that are a positive for labor are the result of union organized workers being politicized and voting for those laws. Don't think for a minute that the war is over, in fact most of those who want better lives through collective bargaining are being inundated daily with propaganda pointing out the "benefits" of living in a right to work state. Union dues are couched as a "burden" on the worker, and union leadership is being characterized as the most vile of criminals.
Preventing the mass immigration of people from those nations that deny their own citizens the right to organize is simply being protective of the progress we've already made. We as citizens have tons more to do in order to establish a better America, bringing in more foreigners isn't in OUR best interest right now. When we see a significant rise in employment and education in America we'll be able to reach out to those in foreign nations once more, but not now. In a democratic nation the collective citizen is supposed to rule, I'd be willing to bet that the average citizen is, for the time being, against anymore immigration until things improve for our own.
Ok. I understand your point. But if the average American citizen holds the opinion of yours, why aren't they voicing their opinions? On the left, there is npr, msnbc, democracy now, ny times, lots others. Yet you seldom see any commentary that holds your liberal opinion. The other day msnbc was just talking about the fear of difference held by americans toward new comers. And this is a largely liberal mainstream media outlet that attracts many many left audiences.
Why is it that people continue to say that "oh we americans don't even do those jobs" and shrug. If the majority of liberals hold your opinion, then there is something wrong. They may not be liars or idiotic and it's hard to generalize. But many are not speaking their mind. If you collectively silence yourself, then who would advance your interests.
Why is it that people continue to say that "oh we americans don't even do those jobs" and shrug. If the majority of liberals hold your opinion, then there is something wrong. They may not be liars or idiotic and it's hard to generalize. But many are not speaking their mind. If you collectively silence yourself, then who would advance your interests.
The problem here is that we were conditioned, for many years, to expect too much. After World War II ended, most of Europe was in ruins, as was Japan. That meant that most of the orders for capital goods such as heavy machinery, etc, had to come here.
With a virtual monopoly, the dominant American manufacturers could also afford to let the unions participate more fully. Older union employees who could no longer handle the "fast pace" could, for example, often find jobs as clerks, inspectors, etc. Union stewards and front-line supervisors were often of similar background, or cross-trained, which made it much easier to keep working in partnership.
All this began to unravel in the early 1980's, by which time lean-and-mean foreign competitors had rebuilt their plants. And all the participants now had no choice but to "cut out fat". Skills handed down and "sharpened" for years were sometimes rendered far less valuable by new technology. We were "dumbed down" in order to be speeded up.
The displaced production workers could find lower-paying work in service-type industries, but it often requires a different type of personality and to be frank, the great numbers of immigrants, minorities, and women often were better-conditioned to project an outgoing image that the displaced "traditional breadwinner" now working for less pay, with a smaller "tool kit" and usually under closer supervision. We were "dumbed down" in order to be speeded up.
That scenario, unfortunately, goes double for the introvert displaced from a supportive role, and I suspect that a large portion of the (pseudo-) liberal "progressives" are well-disposed and conditioned to be on the receiving end of our "Have a nice day" culture of feigned self-effacement and extroversion. Not to mention that it's much easier to adapt to this for the young, attractive, and not-yet-jaded.
Not everyone is in synch with Dale Carnegie. Anybody here seen the film "Tough Guys"?
Last edited by 2nd trick op; 07-24-2014 at 12:46 PM..
Ok. I understand your point. But if the average American citizen holds the opinion of yours, why aren't they voicing their opinions? On the left, there is npr, msnbc, democracy now, ny times, lots others. Yet you seldom see any commentary that holds your liberal opinion. The other day msnbc was just talking about the fear of difference held by americans toward new comers. And this is a largely liberal mainstream media outlet that attracts many many left audiences.
Why is it that people continue to say that "oh we americans don't even do those jobs" and shrug. If the majority of liberals hold your opinion, then there is something wrong. They may not be liars or idiotic and it's hard to generalize. But many are not speaking their mind. If you collectively silence yourself, then who would advance your interests.
Maybe you'd be better served by refraining from watching and listening to a phony news media posing a a kind of leftist well of information. Many many people in my circle of friends do not listen to any so called liberal TV OR radio news simply for the reason that their "news" is biased in favor of the administration of Democratic policy, or if you like, corporate policy fronted for by the Democratic party. You seem confused about difference between the left, as depicted by mainstream media and the "real" left of independent thinkers.
Those of us who want to arrive at our own conclusions are not in the same class as those who seek the truth of things at the altar of mainstream media. NPR isn't the left, it's a radio station, MSNBC isn't the left it's a TV station. There are those on the left and right of things that don't want to do their own research on anything, instead having the shills on both sides doing their thinking for them.
On voicing one's opinion: Just where would someone like me have their voice heard in America? I see this media representation of both right and left views as a huge part of our political polarization. On another note, my opinion shouldn't couched as either liberal OR conservative for the reason that opinions come from information, hopefully, and trying to pigeonhole someone's opinions into these narrow labels simply adds fuel to the already out of control conflagration of party politics. I like to read Counterpunch for the fact that they whup up on Obama or the republican extremists on an equal basis.
Much has been written about the fact of our press being an appendage of the political power, the to and fro of politics isn't usually something that serves the average American, but it makes some feel better when they hear or read something that addresses their political pet peeve. The entire "immigration debate" is simply a form of street theatre for the media and it's masters, it serves to deflect any real discussion of the problem, instead focusing on creating a division rather than anything resembling unity. The power in America has much to gain from this division, and consequently, a lot to lose should the populace become unified...........
Many of my white liberal friends and aquaintences seem to verbally and public support liberal democratic policies, but secretly harbor resentment toward many democratic policies.
Here are some examples?
1. Go out their way to support immigration verbally among friends and coworkers. Talk privately about how America is being so called "colonized" by immigrants (and their children). Resent immigrants and the welfare given to them.
2. Talk about how we need hardworking highly skilled talent. "we love them". Resent workplace competition and oppose the whole h1b visa scheme.
3. Appear to be dismiss and laugh at those white red neck racists. Resent affirmative action when they look around and there aren't many white people or that they couldn't get the job they wanted.
4. Talk about compassion for undocumented immigrants. Resent working class job competition. Resent the so called "drain" on our social services.
These are just some of too many examples.
It tends to be not rich whites or poor whites, but whites in the middle and slightly upper middle who have this kind of inconsistent behavior. Sort of like tea party at heart, too shy to show it.
Do you encounter these "liberals"?
As a pink collared worker, I do notice some card carrying liberals don't care for pink or blue collar workers.
Maybe you'd be better served by refraining from watching and listening to a phony news media posing a a kind of leftist well of information. Many many people in my circle of friends do not listen to any so called liberal TV OR radio news simply for the reason that their "news" is biased in favor of the administration of Democratic policy, or if you like, corporate policy fronted for by the Democratic party. You seem confused about difference between the left, as depicted by mainstream media and the "real" left of independent thinkers.
Those of us who want to arrive at our own conclusions are not in the same class as those who seek the truth of things at the altar of mainstream media. NPR isn't the left, it's a radio station, MSNBC isn't the left it's a TV station. There are those on the left and right of things that don't want to do their own research on anything, instead having the shills on both sides doing their thinking for them.
On voicing one's opinion: Just where would someone like me have their voice heard in America? I see this media representation of both right and left views as a huge part of our political polarization. On another note, my opinion shouldn't couched as either liberal OR conservative for the reason that opinions come from information, hopefully, and trying to pigeonhole someone's opinions into these narrow labels simply adds fuel to the already out of control conflagration of party politics. I like to read Counterpunch for the fact that they whup up on Obama or the republican extremists on an equal basis.
Much has been written about the fact of our press being an appendage of the political power, the to and fro of politics isn't usually something that serves the average American, but it makes some feel better when they hear or read something that addresses their political pet peeve. The entire "immigration debate" is simply a form of street theatre for the media and it's masters, it serves to deflect any real discussion of the problem, instead focusing on creating a division rather than anything resembling unity. The power in America has much to gain from this division, and consequently, a lot to lose should the populace become unified...........
I believe there are indeed many people with your opinions. They are the silent people, not sure if it's the majority since people hide their opinions. There are ways to convey your messages, by writing to your newspapers, by speaking to politicians, by speaking in public and being prepared for being called this or that, by getting involved in decisions made at your local political entities, by involving in your kids schools and its allocation of resources.
More and more cities grant ID cards to undocumented immigrants, among many other things. These city council members apparently believe in it or some of them didn't want to speak their mind. So then nothing gets done. The dominant narrative is not in a favor of your opinions. People refuse to talk about these problems. Or they talk generally without saying much. I have been at events where people felt obligated to support one "correct" opinions. This is why people today are angrier and angrier because they did not express what they really think. The host at the event said something like the future of American democracy is to basically live with these things since we do not have the collective will and GUTS. We are simply going to embrace ever more diversity and various forms of immigration, just as we deal with "challenges" (such a polite and vague term). We will allow as many people in as possible because we are compassionate, but you know what, we will also want unions. Ha, how perfect. problem solved they say. This is the kind of tongue in cheek, upset no one type of empty talk that has little realism. Democratic leaders seem to do this a lot. People then cheer, of course, because it sounds absolutely wonderful, if only it is doable. That part, neither party cares. Such wishful thinking masturbation speaks one thing, that Americans are indeed very frustrated.
And at the end of the day, we have the 14th amendment.
Last edited by Costaexpress; 07-24-2014 at 03:00 PM..
Many of my white liberal friends and aquaintences seem to verbally and public support liberal democratic policies, but secretly harbor resentment toward many democratic policies.
Here are some examples?
1. Go out their way to support immigration verbally among friends and coworkers. Talk privately about how America is being so called "colonized" by immigrants (and their children). Resent immigrants and the welfare given to them.
2. Talk about how we need hardworking highly skilled talent. "we love them". Resent workplace competition and oppose the whole h1b visa scheme.
3. Appear to be dismiss and laugh at those white red neck racists. Resent affirmative action when they look around and there aren't many white people or that they couldn't get the job they wanted.
4. Talk about compassion for undocumented immigrants. Resent working class job competition. Resent the so called "drain" on our social services.
These are just some of too many examples.
It tends to be not rich whites or poor whites, but whites in the middle and slightly upper middle who have this kind of inconsistent behavior. Sort of like tea party at heart, too shy to show it.
Do you encounter these "liberals"?
Yes, but much, much more.
I've seen much more than this, anecdotally speaking...more of my liberal friends actually distancing themselves from a Democratic party that has betrayed them. Not only that, but those who were fervent "O" supporters are incredibly embarrassed now, and angry that not only has he not delivered, but his current actions are at best, questionable. They have used the descriptions of "liar", "narcissist", as well as comment about the brazen misrepresentations of members of his administration.
I've also seen my conservative friends become extremely bitter, and move more to the extreme far-right, as a result of the last 6 years of the Dem's behavior, especially, that of "O". These events have only fueled their fire.
The independents sit back, saying "toldyaso" and want to abolish both parties, and start over. Or come in with a viable, and strong third party.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp
"many liberals are resentful to immigrants"? i guess you mean, among the people you personally know? i could see how any individual person may not love their company hiring people from other countries, but still support the overall idea that we should hire people from other countries where we cannot find people to fill jobs from the American-citizen pool.
Against illegal immigration puts you in the category of hate mongers? I think most people are against illegal immigration, it's just that people have differing opinions on how to deal with the problem that isn't unique to the United States of America and is also common in countries that are islands and share no borders with other countries.
Why should liberals support something generalized as "affirmative action"? What about affirmative action is it that you assume 100% of 'liberals' should support?
Should we all be part of one of the two parties, and agree with 100% of their platform? Or should we be independent thinkers, who choose candidates to support based on who's basket of policies we prefer? When I buy a box of chocalates, I don't eat the ones I don't like, i let others take those. But, it's not going to stop me from buying the box of chocolates, unless someone starts making a box that has only the ones I like. Then I'll buy that one. But that's not happening, so for now, I have to pick the assortment that I like the best.
I believe that this is the fallacy the media and our Dem/Repub politicos want us to believe...sweeping generalizations that libs think 100% one way, and the right, in 100% opposition.
Logically, that can never be the case. Every human being has their own reference points, own anecdotal experiences with the causes of both political ideologies, and over time and with education, evolves a political stance that includes multi-layered ideologies.
If one was to stay mired in their own "fixed" political ideology, I'd submit to you that they are among the "low info" voters, and haven't evolved as far as learning about all of the different stances of their parties, and then doing critical research on data and facts....This new information is not only necessary with the changing times and parallels the current world situation, but also has to be done in order to keep our political parties in "check".
The chocolate analogy is a good one, and so is Tryska's post below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryska
I think this thread is too full of Binary thinking and that most of humanity lives in shades of grey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Costaexpress
A significant number of innovative companies are founded by immigrants. They are also creating jobs for other people.
We want to be consistent with our history. Each time americans feared immigrants , the Irish, the Italians, the whatever, but each time these immigrants made incredible contributions and wrote Americas history. Many of my liberal friends believe in this and this is the main reason they support immigration be it legal or undocumented, in the grand scheme of things. "No human being is illegal."
I have several problems with this post. Of which immigration "wave" are you speaking? Do you have stats on the businesses started by illegals? When?
This is another sweeping generalization that the libs hold on to. The immigration by the Irish, Italians, and Polish of the late 1800's and 1900's was extremely different than the situation we have now. The immigration rules were strict....one had to be healthy, not too old, free of disease, able to work...and show that they had a sponsor. The sponsor was in terms of either a job, or a family member. Remember, there was no welfare, food stamps, or other aid at that time.
Those immigrants (like my g'parents) wanted to BE Americans, and wanted to contribute to the country, and build it up. They were eternally grateful for having been admitted. These immigrants didn't demand literature printed up in their own language, as they were only too proud to learn English (on their own, I might add), and learn it quickly.
This is the type of "low info" I find my liberal friends have, and they have erroneously compared today's "immigrants" (including, and mostly meaning "illegals), into that same category. That is a total error and grave mistake. I've posted multiple references in the Immigration forum with data illuminating the trillions of dollar net DEFICIT that these current "immigrants" are costing us.
The point I'm trying to make, is that whichever party one identifies most with, one STILL must do their own research, platform-by-platform, point-by-point. Educate yourself. In my anecdotal experience here on CD over the past 5 weeks, I've personally found that the far left libs tend to throw out emotional and hateful rants, and only one or two had bothered to back up their beliefs with a weak attempt at citing references (like from MSNBC, a noted "far left, news-deprived" TV show - and yes, I've posted 2 referenced studies that prove that.)
The conservatives, in general, again from my own experience here, have been more rational, calm, use less hateful attacks (but still attack, all the same), and supply more reasoned and balanced references.
The independents tend to have a thoughtful interchange, and bring up positive and negative points on both sides.
Again, I'll admit, that this is my OWN anecdotal experience over a short time.
I can only offer my own story up here...I USED to be a radical lib...a radical feminist as well. I spouted off the party line without knowing WHAT the h*ll I was actually supporting! All I knew (at the time, I was fresh out of college, and looking at the world from my limited viewpoint) were slogans, party lines, and that it was "time for a female in the Whitehouse". Voted for Geraldine Ferraro and the Dems.
Fast forward 25-30 years. I've put myself through higher-education (yes, all on my own. Loans, and hard work scrubbing toilets!), worked in the health care industry, lived in several foreign countries, and have been reading and researching history, politics, and trying to understand economics (haha! try that...it's difficult!).
I'd like to underscore that with education....education of life experiences- working and paying taxes, the experiences of living overseas and viewing America from afar, learning from other country's systems what works and what doesn't, and by doing a heckuvalotta research lately on immigration, I've changed!
I've grown, and matured...and in doing so (now this might p*ss a lot of Dems and libs off), but I've become much more conservative in my political views. Through the years, I've voted both Dem and Repub, moreso Repub, but consider myself an Independent.
I suppose I can say I was initially like one of the OP's friends, who finally saw the "light", and educated myself to go beyond the emotion of the policy or problem at hand, and look at it from more balanced, educated, and a more rational/reasoned level. Again, this I attribute to my own experiences, maturity, but most of all, research and education.
I've seen much more than this, anecdotally speaking...more of my liberal friends actually distancing themselves from a Democratic party that has betrayed them. Not only that, but those who were fervent "O" supporters are incredibly embarrassed now, and angry that not only has he not delivered, but his current actions are at best, questionable. They have used the descriptions of "liar", "narcissist", as well as comment about the brazen misrepresentations of members of his administration.
I've also seen my conservative friends become extremely bitter, and move more to the extreme far-right, as a result of the last 6 years of the Dem's behavior, especially, that of "O". These events have only fueled their fire.
The independents sit back, saying "toldyaso" and want to abolish both parties, and start over. Or come in with a viable, and strong third party.
I believe that this is the fallacy the media and our Dem/Repub politicos want us to believe...sweeping generalizations that libs think 100% one way, and the right, in 100% opposition.
Logically, that can never be the case. Every human being has their own reference points, own anecdotal experiences with the causes of both political ideologies, and over time and with education, evolves a political stance that includes multi-layered ideologies.
If one was to stay mired in their own "fixed" political ideology, I'd submit to you that they are among the "low info" voters, and haven't evolved as far as learning about all of the different stances of their parties, and then doing critical research on data and facts....This new information is not only necessary with the changing times and parallels the current world situation, but also has to be done in order to keep our political parties in "check".
The chocolate analogy is a good one, and so is Tryska's post below.
I have several problems with this post. Of which immigration "wave" are you speaking? Do you have stats on the businesses started by illegals? When?
This is another sweeping generalization that the libs hold on to. The immigration by the Irish, Italians, and Polish of the late 1800's and 1900's was extremely different than the situation we have now. The immigration rules were strict....one had to be healthy, not too old, free of disease, able to work...and show that they had a sponsor. The sponsor was in terms of either a job, or a family member. Remember, there was no welfare, food stamps, or other aid at that time.
Those immigrants (like my g'parents) wanted to BE Americans, and wanted to contribute to the country, and build it up. They were eternally grateful for having been admitted. These immigrants didn't demand literature printed up in their own language, as they were only too proud to learn English (on their own, I might add), and learn it quickly.
This is the type of "low info" I find my liberal friends have, and they have erroneously compared today's "immigrants" (including, and mostly meaning "illegals), into that same category. That is a total error and grave mistake. I've posted multiple references in the Immigration forum with data illuminating the trillions of dollar net DEFICIT that these current "immigrants" are costing us.
The point I'm trying to make, is that whichever party one identifies most with, one STILL must do their own research, platform-by-platform, point-by-point. Educate yourself. In my anecdotal experience here on CD over the past 5 weeks, I've personally found that the far left libs tend to throw out emotional and hateful rants, and only one or two had bothered to back up their beliefs with a weak attempt at citing references (like from MSNBC, a noted "far left, news-deprived" TV show - and yes, I've posted 2 referenced studies that prove that.)
The conservatives, in general, again from my own experience here, have been more rational, calm, use less hateful attacks (but still attack, all the same), and supply more reasoned and balanced references.
The independents tend to have a thoughtful interchange, and bring up positive and negative points on both sides.
Again, I'll admit, that this is my OWN anecdotal experience over a short time.
I can only offer my own story up here...I USED to be a radical lib...a radical feminist as well. I spouted off the party line without knowing WHAT the h*ll I was actually supporting! All I knew (at the time, I was fresh out of college, and looking at the world from my limited viewpoint) were slogans, party lines, and that it was "time for a female in the Whitehouse". Voted for Geraldine Ferraro and the Dems.
Fast forward 25-30 years. I've put myself through higher-education (yes, all on my own. Loans, and hard work scrubbing toilets!), worked in the health care industry, lived in several foreign countries, and have been reading and researching history, politics, and trying to understand economics (haha! try that...it's difficult!).
I'd like to underscore that with education....education of life experiences- working and paying taxes, the experiences of living overseas and viewing America from afar, learning from other country's systems what works and what doesn't, and by doing a heckuvalotta research lately on immigration, I've changed!
I've grown, and matured...and in doing so (now this might p*ss a lot of Dems and libs off), but I've become much more conservative in my political views. Through the years, I've voted both Dem and Repub, moreso Repub, but consider myself an Independent.
I suppose I can say I was initially like one of the OP's friends, who finally saw the "light", and educated myself to go beyond the emotion of the policy or problem at hand, and look at it from more balanced, educated, and a more rational/reasoned level. Again, this I attribute to my own experiences, maturity, but most of all, research and education.
thanks for listening,
----Dandiday
Thanks for sharing. Of course people fresh out of school were in a way brainwashed because they are young and got lots of simple party lines at school. You matured into your own. Lots of people don't. They follow the fashion and they group think using cognitive dissonance.
So your friends think that the Democratic Party has betrayed them. This is extremely interesting. What part of the democratic polices betrayed them?
I bet here is what's going on. Lots of lefty people do have what lefty celebrities demonize as conservative or centrist views, even though things are grey. Lefty celebrities and far lefties have pushed for a pure, ideological stand and they dominate the left discussion. As a result, many liberals have to basically silence themselves all these years, have no choice but sing to the choir, and got angrier. When others laugh, they laugh. But it's all just a thin wall that is now coming down.
I think when things get worse, these people will no longer behave as polite generous liberals anymore. That aggressive, primitive, and nationalistic attitude will come out. Perhaps it will have a bit of racism, bitterness, etc.
The conservative poor and the liberal poor and middle actually share common interests, even though they differ in many ways. They both suffer from the current system.
Coastaexpress, I think you're correct in that the middle class mix of left and right are actually much closer in ideology than they wish to admit.
My liberal friends, as I mentioned, are embarrassed by "O", and some are even now speaking out against people like Reid and Pelosi, and their obvious cloaking and deflection tactics.
Some are angry that the healthcare act isn't cheap enough, actually. Others are saying they're mad that they have to pay more for this "privilege", and it wasn't what they expected. Many who have low-to -mid-paying jobs are angry over the illegals coming in, and angry the monies that are going to that group instead of helping their neighborhoods, homeless, job creation, etc. It's such a mixed bag!!!
However, there are still a few "holdouts". One in particular says she'll always vote Dem, no matter what, no matter who. She still will defend "O" to the end. Yes, she's one of the ones who always laughed at rednecks and put them down...however, she's married to one!!! He's the stereotypical redneck right down to the haircut and rifle in the back of the pickup truck. Further, she's black! (very light-skinned - could pass for a Hawaiian or Samoan person). Talk about contradictions...
I wish people wouldn't pigeon-hole themselves into a particular group or party. It's just not logical, and is tearing our country apart.
Coastaexpress, I think you're correct in that the middle class mix of left and right are actually much closer in ideology than they wish to admit.
My liberal friends, as I mentioned, are embarrassed by "O", and some are even now speaking out against people like Reid and Pelosi, and their obvious cloaking and deflection tactics.
Some are angry that the healthcare act isn't cheap enough, actually. Others are saying they're mad that they have to pay more for this "privilege", and it wasn't what they expected. Many who have low-to -mid-paying jobs are angry over the illegals coming in, and angry the monies that are going to that group instead of helping their neighborhoods, homeless, job creation, etc. It's such a mixed bag!!!
However, there are still a few "holdouts". One in particular says she'll always vote Dem, no matter what, no matter who. She still will defend "O" to the end. Yes, she's one of the ones who always laughed at rednecks and put them down...however, she's married to one!!! He's the stereotypical redneck right down to the haircut and rifle in the back of the pickup truck. Further, she's black! (very light-skinned - could pass for a Hawaiian or Samoan person). Talk about contradictions...
I wish people wouldn't pigeon-hole themselves into a particular group or party. It's just not logical, and is tearing our country apart.
===Dandiday
From the various posts on CD I see the contradictions that form up the bulk of what passes for public opinion, when in fact our general public by their own admission lacks the will to actually read much. How are we to ever get a sense of what is the right path to take when considering that so much of the vitriol that stems from basic misunderstandings? Some posters are loading up their posts with obviously biased material taken from their favorite sources and then expecting the rest of us to respond with an argument against what we know are lies and misconceptions. Both of our political parties are loyal only to those who pay their way into the political arena, until this changes or the introduction of a meaningful third party comes along the fight will serve to further tear down this nation.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Shades of grey
