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What do you mean Chinese isn't "Established?" Seriously.
Look at America's Chinatowns. We have one here in Las Vegas. I've been to the Chinatowns in New York, San Francisco. Even Boston has a Chinatown. I hear Chinese being spoken on the street. The signs on the storefronts all have some Chinese -- and some are exclusively in Chinese, although most are Chinese and English.
......
And yet it is ALWAYS about the Spanish language and Mexican immigration. So ask yourself, why is that? (And Mr. Occam shaved this morning and suggests that the simplest answer is probably the correct answer.)
Established might have been a poor choice of words.
What I meant by "established" was a language that is dominant across generations by a large segment of the population.
Of course, there is lots of Chinese spoke in the US. But, nobody could conceivably argue that the US is becoming a bilingual English-Mandarin society.
However, some people do make that argument about the US becoming a bilingual English-Spanish society. I personally don't think this will happen. But, as I pointed out, many people have argued the opposite. They point to the growing critical mass of Spanish speakers as the driving force.
It is also a key reason why Spanish arises so much passion in the US in a way that Chinese or Swahili doesn't. There is no concerns that they will become an "essential language". Of course,
yeah there is a (repugnant) xenophobia element to some of the opposition to it, but there are also very practical non-racial concerns about language divisions. I know you refuse to acknowledge that there can be a difference..but so be it. Agree to disagree.
Most people will acknowledge that there is a BIG difference between encouraging a common language for social unity (even if they disagree with the idea) and racism against immigrant groups.
And yet, it has been demonstrated over and over in this thread that the Latinos are assimilating. And they're doing so quicker than any other immigrant wave. I can take a walk down my street and see Latino assimilation happening right now. The kids on my street don't look like me. But they talk EXACTLY like me. And they speak Spanish with their grandparents who don't speak English particularly well. After four generations, you get Al Madrigal.
So why all the hand wringing?
If you want to debate whether we should close our southern border and put up a wall, so that it resembles East Berlin -- that's another matter entirely.
Established might have been a poor choice of words.
What I meant by "established" was a language that is dominant across generations by a large segment of the population.
Of course, there is lots of Chinese spoke in the US. But, nobody could conceivably argue that the US is becoming a bilingual English-Mandarin society.
However, some people do make that argument about the US becoming a bilingual English-Spanish society. I personally don't think this will happen. But, as I pointed out, many people have argued the opposite. They point to the growing critical mass of Spanish speakers as the driving force.
It is also a key reason why Spanish arises so much passion in the US in a way that Chinese or Swahili doesn't. It is simply by far the most prominent spoken language.
Of course, yeah there is a (repugnant) xenophobia element to some of the opposition to it, but there are also very practical concerns about language divisions. I know you refuse to acknowledge the difference..but so be it.
Any objective person, will realize that there is a difference between encouraging a common language and racism against immigrant groups.
Good post. I would only add that there aren't near the number of Chinese here illegally or legally as there are Spanish speakers. So one can't really compare one with the other.
Look I get where you are coming from. But, I don't think requiring Spanish skills for employment is discrimination. It is, however, a legitimate example of how language balkanization creates social tensions.
Requiring people to know multiple languages for service sector jobs is going to place many disadvantage Americans from getting a foot in the door at formal employment. Requiring ex-convicts, recovering drug addicts, HS drop outs, single mothers, and so on to learn a 2nd language is placing another huge burden on them. Higher up the skill later, telling teacher, police officers, nurses to learn Spanish in addition to all of the other stuff they have to know is going to create tension. Those that are passed over for jobs, because they don't know the language are going to be pretty upset. It's not really discrimination on employers parts, they are just responding to social realities.
Beyond employment, people are more likely to associate with people who speak their common language. Socially, I think this is not a healthy thing. It just gives us something else to fight about. We should be an integrated society. That is why I support encouraging English as the common unifying language.
Having different language groups will create social divisions. Some people dismiss the notion, because it goes against there notion with there is nothing wrong with having a society where different groups speak different languages, but it is true. Language is always a divisive issue, because it is the fundamental means with which people communicate.
Personally, as I have previously stated, I doubt the extent that language balkanization is actually happening. But, if it did happen, I think it would be a negative thing.
Yes, it is discrimination based on the reasons for it. I have already explained the reasons already. Yet you go on to make accurate remarks that backup those discrimination claims. Social realities? You mean a certain group demanding Spanish when they know English and illegal aliens? I don't consider that a normal social reality. I do however, agree with the other statements you have made.
I know you refuse to acknowledge that there can be difference reasons for encouraging English..but so be it.
Any objective person, will realize that there is a difference between encouraging a common language for social unity (even if they disagree with the idea) and racism against immigrant groups.
I don't refuse to acknowledge it. I live right in the middle of it. And I have come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter.
An immigrant can become an American success story without speaking a single word of English. I have seen this happen first hand. I have in-laws who are those "job creators" that some people fawn all over. And they speak so little English (and so badly) that it's just easier to say they don't speak English. But they are successful -- by any yardstick you care to measure them with.
The Mexican grandmothers who live on my street aren't going to become particularly fluent. They're old and set in their ways. Who cares? They're great people, just as long as they aren't confronted with the "my-way-or-the-highway" bigotry that they encounter far too often in this country.
As soon as they get that kind of attitude, they switch gears into "we're going to talk about you in such a way that you know we're talking about you, but you can't understand it, you racist [censored]" mode. I've seen it first hand. Every immigrant group will display a circle-the-wagons mentality when they are confronted by blatant bigotry.
I used to feel much the same way as you do about Spanish and Latino immigration. But that was before I moved to the Latino quarter of Las Vegas. The billboards here in Sunrise are in Spanish. The stores often have both Spanish and English signage. And some markets feel like a foreign country.
And having lived here for years, I have come to the conclusion that it simply doesn't matter. They are just as patriotic as I am. Their kids speak English exactly the same way that I do. They don't look like me. But I don't care about that.
I'm not refusing to acknowledge anything. I've come to not just accept it, but embrace it. I think it's good for our country. We're gaining much and losing nothing.
If you want to debate whether we should close our southern border and put up a wall, so that it resembles East Berlin -- that's another matter entirely.
You forgot the biggest part of that. The wall separating West and East Berlin was put up by the East to keep their people held in. Fencing our southern border would be to keep people out.
You forgot the biggest part of that. The wall separating West and East Berlin was put up by the East to keep their people held in. Fencing our southern border would be to keep people out.
Exactly, there is no comparison to the East Berlin wall. We need a good reinforced wall on the most porous areas of our southern border. That is the border where most drugs and illegal aliens are coming through. There is also much evidence that criminals and people from known terrorist countries are also getting through. Now can we get back on topic which is about the Spanish language?
The only real language that carries weight is $$$. Currently the American dollar can be understood in any language and those who want our money will find ways to make themselves understood. I'm not sure how much interaction ppl in other parts of the US have with Hispanic immigrants, but here in SoCal many ordinary ppl employ housekeepers, cleaning ladies, contractors, gardeners, painters & dozens of other service & tradesmen who speak minimal English. Yet somehow we're able to communicate the details of tasks that need to be done. They're not doing neurosurgery or derivative currency swaps.
Even my friend who's a distributor for imported architectural ceramic tiles from Latin America says that his Spanish is conversational at best and all important negotiations are done through both a translator and a banker experienced in import/export deals so there's no miswordings or cultural misunderstandings. While Spanish may be helpful if you're trying to market directly to a Latino audience, you have to acknowledge your short-comings and realize that there are bi-cultural ppl who're much better at tapping into that market than you. All you need to do is hire them!
The only real language that carries weight is $$$. Currently the American dollar can be understood in any language and those who want our money will find ways to make themselves understood. I'm not sure how much interaction ppl in other parts of the US have with Hispanic immigrants, but here in SoCal many ordinary ppl employ housekeepers, cleaning ladies, contractors, gardeners, painters & dozens of other service & tradesmen who speak minimal English. Yet somehow we're able to communicate the details of tasks that need to be done. They're not doing neurosurgery or derivative currency swaps.
Even my friend who's a distributor for imported architectural ceramic tiles from Latin America says that his Spanish is conversational at best and all important negotiations are done through both a translator and a banker experienced in import/export deals so there's no miswordings or cultural misunderstandings. While Spanish may be helpful if you're trying to market directly to a Latino audience, you have to acknowledge your short-comings and realize that there are bi-cultural ppl who're much better at tapping into that market than you. All you need to do is hire them!
Just as long as one is here legally employers can hire whom they want but there is still a lot of discrimination going on against native English speakers. If these Spanish speakers are here illegally then no they can't lawfully hire them.
Hiring someone with better skills is not discrimination. Repeating it over and over doesn't make it true.
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