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Since creating Israel all we've managed to do is continually **** off just about every other nation in that area. Had Israel never been created would we have better relations with those people in the middle east?
I get that Israel is supposed to be the "Jewish home" or what have you, but is it really worth it when just about all of your neighbors would love nothing more than to see you dead?
Personally, I think it would've been better for everyone had we given the Jews their own little Jewish island, like Madagascar for example. They get their own little island to call their own and we don't have to deal with everyone and their mom in the middle east wanting to kill us and fly planes into buildings.
As an American it has really bothered me how we have to suffer just because Jews have made enemies wherever they've gone. When 9/11 happened the terrorists should have been in Israel not America. Israel can be hit by a nuke sent by mecha-Hitler for all I care, I just hate how ever since WWII all the Jews' problems have become ours!
And no, since there is no such thing as a "god" Jews do not have a "right" to any land. I am very convinced that creating Israel was one of the worst mistakes in human history.
So what do you think? If Israel were to never have existed would we be on better terms with other ME countries?
Thirty years prior or even a bit before (the end of WW1 or still under Ottoman Control) but
MOST POINTEDLY had it happened before the Arabs had oil wealth it sure would have been simpler.
Too few want to accept the role of oil wealth on complicating what c/should have been.
Too many seem far too willing to prostitute their morals to oil interests.
Almost as many who are uninformed generally. It's disheartening.
Creating a new Israel was not a bad idea, insisting that it be placed where the old Israel once existed, was.
Yeah, my thoughts as well. Hence why I brought up the idea of giving the Jews Madagascar or some other island they can call Israel. It just infuriates me that thousands of Americans have died and will die just because some desert people feel some mythological being "gave them" land.
If an asteroid were to smash right into the middle east (or Africa) I'd certainly be happy.
Not at all. The proxy wars of the Cold War era sustained the initial Arab vs. Jewish animosity. A Superpower was needed to police the area and none was available to manage both sides instead it naturally lead to warfare. Great Britain, who knew how to manage people, vacated the power pole too soon and the replacements USA/USSR were ideologically driven.
Yeah, my thoughts as well. Hence why I brought up the idea of giving the Jews Madagascar or some other island they can call Israel. It just infuriates me that thousands of Americans have died and will die just because some desert people feel some mythological being "gave them" land.
If an asteroid were to smash right into the middle east (or Africa) I'd certainly be happy.
Giving the Jews a state anywhere would have involved displacing some group of people. There had been Jewish settlement of Palestine since the late 1800's as the Zionist movement took root. Much of the land within Palestine was acquired by the Jews simply purchasing it from Arab groups. Much of the land was swamp and undeveloped. A good part of the settlement involved being very creative and developing methods for draining this swampland which previously had gone unused. As the swamps were drained, malaria which had been a dangerous disease in this area also was controlled. There were actually some Arabs that were grateful that this occurred. In the early days, the indigenous Arab population of Palestine did little to oppose Jewish settlements within Palestine.
The difficulties with the indigenous population began later. As Jewish settlements increased, Arabs began to take notice. The period from the end of World War I until the establishment of Israel in 1948 was marked by the collapse of the Ottoman Empire (which had previously controlled Palestine) and by the rise of Arab Nationalism. By the 1930's problems were brewing between the Jewish settlers and indigenous Arabs. There were any number of recorded massacres or murders. Great Britain had been given a mandate to govern Palestine by the League of Nations following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the end of World War I. The British found this increasingly difficult to do. Both Jewish and Arab groups began to agitate for their own nation. Perhaps, the only thing they could agree on was that they didn't want the British in control of Palestine.
President Franklin D. Roosevelt was growing increasingly concerned about what would happen in the area when World War II ended. In 1944, he met with King Ibn Saud of Saudi Arabia. Ibn Saud told him the logical thing to do was to give the Jews a homeland, but to give them part of Germany, instead of Palestine. There was so many Jewish settlers in Palestine at this point that Saud's idea was never taken seriously.
Following World War II, the United Nations took up the question of what to do with Palestine. The plan was to divide Palestine into a Jewish state and into an Arab state or to partition it. This plan was not universally accepted by many political leaders. U.S. Secretary of State George Marshall was very much against the idea of creating a Jewish state in Palestine. He perceived that the state would lead to a rift in relations between the United States and the newly formed Arab countries in the Middle East. Marshall felt that the USA would need Arab oil in the future and that we could not afford such a rift. Marshall lobbied President Truman to not support the creation of Israel. Truman decided that despite Marshall's misgivings that the US should support the creation of Israel and instructed our ambassador to the United Nations to vote in favor of the proposal to create a state of Israel.
Here is where we have to decide whether our foreign policy should always be determined by purely economic interests or not or whether considerations of morality and humanity should play a role. World War II and the Holocaust had resulted in the destruction of half the Jewish population in the world. There was concern that the only way that Jewish people could be assured of their safety was to give them a country of their own. I personally think there were legitimate moral and practical reasons for the creation of Israel. As tough as it was, I think Truman made the right decision.
I can't help, but imagine how insecure many of the early Jewish founders of Israel must have felt. They were surrounded on every side by hostile enemies. Yet, over the years much of that threat has dissipated. Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel over 35 years ago. Jordan (another previous enemy) now has diplomatic relations with Israel. The Muslim nation of Turkey recognizes Israel and has considerable trade with it. Syria is so dysfunctional today that it is anything, but a threat to Israel. Some important people within Saudi Arabia are calling for an end to the conflict with Israel. Perhaps, most importantly, Israel now possesses nuclear weapons. The possibility of any Arab or Muslim country acting militarily against Israel has shrunk considerably.
Israel is more secure today than it ever has been. It is also more economically prosperous than it has been as well. It has a burgeoning high tech and computer industry that is of remarkable size for a nation its size. I challenge anyone to attend a show like the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas and not see hordes of Jewish vendors from Israel in attendance.
Israel is here to stay. Its people have proven themselves more than a match for all their adversaries. Nevertheless, none of this means there shouldn't be a Palestine. Ultimately, a solution to the problems in the Middle East requires that this piece of the puzzle be solved as well. When the Palestinians have their own homeland, many will have much less cause to hate Jews or Israel. Israel will also be on higher moral footing if Palestinian groups choose to attack it as well. It will harder for its opponents to argue that Israel is responsible for their difficulties.
But why did we have to do anything? Let the ME burn. After WWII they should've given every Jew a free ticket to Palestine and tell them to work it out. If the Jews want a nation of their own so bad then surely they should be able to take it on their own, I mean they are the "chosen" ones after all.
So what do you think? If Israel were to never have existed would we be on better terms with other ME countries?
No. If Israel were not created (or they lost the war) then as the British & French colonists turned over the ME to its Arab population then the Sunni/shiite conflict would have started much earlier. We (USA) would have even worse terms related to the ME since the Europeans had been meddling in the Middle East and North Africa for numerous decades before WW2 and thus they would have more of the contracts then they have now. If you think the US would've been better, then why was there no US Mandate in the Middle East?
But why did we have to do anything? Let the ME burn. After WWII they should've given every Jew a free ticket to Palestine and tell them to work it out. If the Jews want a nation of their own so bad then surely they should be able to take it on their own, I mean they are the "chosen" ones after all.
Israel initial gov't were Secular Jews and not Religious Jews so bringing the word "chosen" really has little to do with the creation of Israel. FWIW the initial population was only about 20% European. The rest were N. African or Middle Eastern. You may want to look up that it was Britain who armed the Arabs with armored vehicles and tanks. The Jews had what they could steal from the Arabs as no one supplied them. The British had heavily stacked the cards against the Jews and they were expected to lose.
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