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I admit that he should probably quantify that a bit more.
Degradation by having another flavor of people show up probably depends a lot on who they are and on how many there are. There's probably some way to measure that based on increasing cost of social services, crime rates, and average income.
An example is if there are many mixed race kids in the same school how is the different cultures of all those kids going to be taught. It isn't. White kids should be taught white history, white cultural achievements, past white leaders of their people, etc. And there is more to it. Studies have shown that when communities are of mixed races there is less trust between people even of the same race. This isn't a racist view because I don't hate other races. It is just best for everyone if they keep to their own kind. Of course this view isn't politically correct in this politically correct world that we are living in but I will only say what I believe is best for most people and I believe that deep down most people would agree with me.
The idea that minorities have nothing to bring to a community is a racist idea. The idea that we should cater to racists by never making them overcome their bigotry is absurd. Racist individuals shouldn't get to live in a world where they are never around other races. Rather, they should be forced to overcome their prejudice.
The original argument being laid out here is essentially that integration makes communities worse because minorities bring nothing to the table, and racists are more likely to perform racist acts if they are around minorities. In other words, if we know the KKK might burn a cross in a yard, we should ban blacks from living in the area, especially since they don't bring anything of value to the community anyway. That is obviously the wrong response. The right response would be to make it socially unacceptable to be a racist, and if one is a racist, they should be shunned.
With all due respect, I believe that you are contradicting yourself. In your second paragraph, you rightly criticize the belief that the victims of racism (e.g. your black neighbors having a cross burned on their lawn) should be forced to move away, rather than the perpetrators of the racism being shunned. With this, I am in complete agreement.
However, take a look at your first paragraph. Racist individuals "should be forced to overcome their prejudice." Why? Why should anyone be "forced" to change their beliefs, regardless of what other people may think of those beliefs? I believe that racists should have the same freedom of association -- and this includes the freedom NOT to associate with those whom they'd prefer to avoid -- as anyone else. If a racist wants to live around only his own kind, he should be free to voluntarily choose to do so.
Besides that, my being white, I know that white communities are not enhanced in any way by integration. So I not only see no purpose in integration but see harm in it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskyMama
You "know" white communities are not enhanced in any way by integration? Seriously?
I don't care what color my neighbors are. Are they decent people? Are they considerate neighbors in general? Do they keep up their property so as not to damage the value of mine? Do they teach their kids right from wrong? Are they law-abiding responsible human beings?
Any race can meet those criteria, and are welcome in my neighborhood any day of the week.
You know, this may seem odd, but I find myself agreeing with both of these positions. On the one hand, my concern is not what color my neighbors are, but how they behave. The criteria that HuskyMama gave above are the same ones I would apply. Anyone who meets those criteria would be people I would want to have as neighbors. And I, as a white person, would far rather live in a neighborhood populated entirely by the likes of Clarence Thomas and Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams and Star Parker and Ben Carson (all of whom are black, for those who don't know) than one populated by the likes of Eminem and Vanilla Ice (who are white).
That said, it is an unfortunate reality that most majority-black neighborhoods are not populated by the type of black people I've named above. Rather, they tend to be dominated by -- culturally, even if not numerically -- by lower-class types who are not considerate of their neighbors, who do not keep up their properties, who do not teach their kids right from wrong, and are not law abiding or are tolerant of those who are not. And I don't want to live around people like that, and I don't want them encroaching upon where I live. Nickerman has observed what I have too: historically speaking, neighborhoods (and districts and entire cities) that have changed from majority white to majority black have become worse places to live. (I could reel off a huge list of examples, as I'm sure many other people could as well. If anyone can give any examples of the opposite happening -- where a neighborhood went from majority white to majority black and, in so doing, became a nicer, more desirable place to live -- I would be very interested in hearing about it.)
However, take a look at your first paragraph. Racist individuals "should be forced to overcome their prejudice." Why? Why should anyone be "forced" to change their beliefs, regardless of what other people may think of those beliefs? I believe that racists should have the same freedom of association -- and this includes the freedom NOT to associate with those whom they'd prefer to avoid -- as anyone else. If a racist wants to live around only his own kind, he should be free to voluntarily choose to do so.
I didn't claim that racist folks shouldn't have to right to live where they want. By "force" I am referring to social pressure, not legal pressure.
The idea that minorities have nothing to bring to a community is a racist idea. The idea that we should cater to racists by never making them overcome their bigotry is absurd. Racist individuals shouldn't get to live in a world where they are never around other races. Rather, they should be forced to overcome their prejudice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost
I didn't claim that racist folks shouldn't have to right to live where they want. By "force" I am referring to social pressure, not legal pressure.
There is no contradiction in my post.
I appreciate your clarification. But I cannot figure out any way to deny someone the opportunity to live among people solely of their own race, as you are advocating, absent legal pressure.
An example is if there are many mixed race kids in the same school how is the different cultures of all those kids going to be taught. It isn't. White kids should be taught white history, white cultural achievements, past white leaders of their people, etc. And there is more to it. Studies have shown that when communities are of mixed races there is less trust between people even of the same race. This isn't a racist view because I don't hate other races. It is just best for everyone if they keep to their own kind. Of course this view isn't politically correct in this politically correct world that we are living in but I will only say what I believe is best for most people and I believe that deep down most people would agree with me.
Keep on digging that hole deeper.
Why shouldn't all children be taught all history? All cultural achievements? All leaders? Seriously?
Can we not be as inspired by the life story of Condi Rice as the life story of George Washington? Do we have nothing to teach each other?
Legally enforced segregation is certainly not a good thing, but I always found it ironic that my environment growing up as a child in the nineties was just as segregated as that of my grandparents who grew up in Jim Crow deep south; my neighborhood was all-black, the schools I went to were all-black, and the church I went to every sunday was all-black. We saw white people all the time but never really spoke to any. My first real experience with whites and other races was in high school.
Why shouldn't all children be taught all history? All cultural achievements? All leaders? Seriously?
Can we not be as inspired by the life story of Condi Rice as the life story of George Washington? Do we have nothing to teach each other?
The problem with that notion is that if your view of history isn't filled with affirmative action, practically all history studies would be about males and outside of the military arts (and some fine arts), probably European and the descendants of Europeans.
One thing that I wished for in history writing would be for a strong veering towards unbiased reporting. It's too darned easy to pick out the political bias of an author in just a few paragraphs, a 'just the facts ma'am' approach would be welcome.
In the long run, the unimportance of Ms. Rice will relegate her to being a Jeopardy question at best.
The idea that minorities have nothing to bring to a community is a racist idea.
Tell me what they are going to contribute to a community that my own culture can't contribute. Restaurants? I don't have to have an ethnic restaurant in a community of my culture to enjoy their food. I can just go their community and eat their food as they did in the early 1950s and before. Besides the food it was a cultural experience that made the day interesting. As far as getting to know other cultures and experiencing their fine points I don't have to have them living in my ethnic community to do that. In fact when you take ethnic people out of their ethnic communities and mix them into other communities something is lost. There is a greater appreciation of other ethnic groups when they live in their own ethnic communities.
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